Comments on: Iglésia Profúndo

By: Mike McNichols

Mike McNichols — Fri, 10 Aug 2007 21:22:25 +0000

Dave,

Henry Nouwen wrote,

“One of the greatest ironies of the history of Christianity is that its leaders constantly gave in to the temptation of power . . . The temptation to consider power an apt instrument for the proclamation of the gospel is the greatest of all. . . What makes the temptation of power so seemingly irresistible? Maybe it is that power offers an easy substitute for the hard task of love. It seems easier to be God than to love, easier to control people than to love people, easier to own life than to love life.” (In the Name of Jesus, 58-9)

Sometimes theological and doctrinal knowledge can offer a false sense of power. And it is easier to wield power than to love.

By: Dave - Zimbabwe

Dave - Zimbabwe — Fri, 10 Aug 2007 08:07:39 +0000

Hi Mike
I think that our priorities as Christians are reversed. We tend to put more importance on doctrine, theology and the like than we do on relationship. I think this is mainly because it is safer…
To discuss and teach doctrines and theologies (sorry if using wrong words) costs us only effort to understand. The more knowledge we have the more ’strength’ we have in our argument.
When it comes to relationship, we have to put much more on the line. We can HIDE behind knowledge and discussion but we have to become VUNERABLE in relationship. For most, this is not easy.

Unfortunately, we beleive that we have succeeded and accomplished something if we win an argument or define a more acurate doctrine. Whilst these things have an importance we do need to ask ourselves honestly:
What have I actually accomplished? Is it a head full of more thoughts and a bookshelve of more papers. Or has the reality of these truths in MY life helped and transformed anothers?

Sometimes I believe that we need to ask the brutally honest questions even at the risk of turning my own cart upside down.
Dave

By: Mike McNichols

Mike McNichols — Thu, 09 Aug 2007 22:27:20 +0000

Your comment about the Kingdom really hit home. I’ve been in some conversations with my Vineyard colleagues where we have found ourselves trying to grab a more precise theology of the Kingdom of God because we feel we need it as a doctrinal distinctive, and then forgetting (I should only speak for myself here) to live out the implications of the Kingdom.

Also, I appreciate the power of what you said regarding depersonalization. To say “I have left the church” leaves one open to villanizing the organization, where to say “I have left my brothers and sisters, etc.” is to admit that one is willing to break relationship.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

By: Dave - Zimbabwe

Dave - Zimbabwe — Wed, 08 Aug 2007 14:08:13 +0000

Hi Mike
Good article. I feel that the key lies in the essence. We lose the essence of things. Spiritual movement fail because they lose the essence of what they had in the beginning. An example of this may be the focus on the ‘theology’ of the Kingdom and forgeting the reality of the Kingdom. I have seen this inside the Vineyard movement to some extent. There is a lot of teaching on the ‘theology’ and a lot of talk about being a Kingdom movement but in all this those people lose sight of the Knigdom and more important the King.

Therefore, following this same line, it is I feel, correct to ask in regards to church, what is the essence of church. As you have rightly said church has become a much dissected concept that I beleive has become unrecognisable.

I would say personally that the thing that as always lain at the root of the problem of what is church, is peoples inability to reconcile the wordly and the sacred. The soulish and the spiritual. We are constantly trying to conform the church to the world, the ORGANISM to the ORGANISATION, the animate to the inanimate and the living to the dead.

The essence of ‘church’ is relationship. We do not have church without relationship, firstly with God and secondly with each other.
John 13:34 “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
NIV

If we do not start and end church with this point, then we have missed the point. Everything else, our methods, styles, theologies etc must hang on this. It is the essence of the church. This is why I have opted to only refer to the ‘church’ as ‘fellowship.’ Because simply put, when people see ‘church’ they thing building, organisation, offices etc. not relationship.

Last thing that I personally have been chewing on lately is the interesting fact that mankind has to depersonalise something to be able to discard it. ie the Germans reduced the Jews to less than animals so that they could destroy them, Rwanda the same (cockroaches,) even here in Zimbabwe it was the Matabele dogs. It is interesting that people depersonalise the church so that they can cut it off if need be. It is easier to say ‘I have left the church,’ than to say ‘I have left my brothers and sisters, my friends and family.’ You cannot ‘relate’ to an inanimate object. We need to stop ‘attending’ churches and house churches and start relating to each other. This is the mystery.

thanx for all the good input.
Regards
Dave
Harare Zimbabwe

By: Mike McNichols

Mike McNichols — Tue, 07 Aug 2007 14:12:30 +0000

Thanks, Rick. This morning I was reading Simon Chan’s Liturgical Theology. He says this: “The story of the church . . . could be said to be the story of the Spirit in the church. . . . This is why Pentecost is so vital to the continuing growth of the Christian story. Without telling the story of the church, which is the story of the Spirit in the church, we have an incomplete gospel” (p. 35). It is tragic that too often the church, as a community of the Spirit, organizes and orients both its inner and outer life elsewhere.

By: Rick Cruse (Zoo Muse)

Rick Cruse (Zoo Muse) — Tue, 07 Aug 2007 11:12:12 +0000

P.S. Jesus indirectly answered the woman at the well who asked, “You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you…?” when he said, “…whoever drinks of the water I will give him/her shall never thirst….” When we truly have fellowship with one another, our fellowship is actually greater because, ultimately, it is with God (1Jn 1:3).

By: Rick Cruse (Zoo Muse)

Rick Cruse (Zoo Muse) — Tue, 07 Aug 2007 11:05:41 +0000

I profoundly appreciate your posting. After 20+ years working “alongside” congregations and leaders, I find myself back “inside” a local community of believers. You have clearly stated some basic issues that I have been struggling to formulate and struggling to know how to communicate regarding real “fellowship.” Last week I was joking with two friends about our loose use of the word “fellowship” as a verb and as an adjective (Let’s fellowship; build a fellowship hall, etc.). In fact, fellowship exists in the community of the Trinity. To the extent we enter into that community and the extent to which we supernaturally experience and practice the “one another” passages is the extent to whcih we will enjoy profound fellowship with one another and with God. Thank you.

By: Mike McNichols

Mike McNichols — Mon, 06 Aug 2007 17:52:11 +0000

Like you, Paul, my experiences have been both deep and shallow, just like me. I think I have experienced this sense of oneness most significantly in small groups of people where there is the possibility of sharing common commitments and even common mission. It’s not that such sharing is not possible in larger gatherings, but it’s more difficult to do.

Prior to taking my current sabbatical, my church (a house church setup) was learning to use the Book of Common Prayer as a framework for creating sacred space characterized by the reading of Scripture, prayer, song, silence and an interactive homily that allowed all to participate. For me, opening space for the group to listen to God and then respond to the Spirit is important for learning about oneness.

Hope that helps.

By: Paul

Paul — Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:58:51 +0000

Thanks Mike, my church experienece is one of both deep and shallow, profound and mundane – of course that is pretty much my experience as a christian as well

So i dig your post about oneness and recasting our ideas of church in the light of the trinity, in it’s social and economic forms but can i ask you – what does this look/feellike in your own community and experiences?