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	<title>Comments on: The loss of church as&#160;public</title>
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	<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F04%2F18%2Fthe-loss-of-church-as-public%2F&amp;seed_title=The+loss+of+church+as%26%23160%3Bpublic</link>
	<description>remembering our past to face our future</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 04:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F04%2F18%2Fthe-loss-of-church-as-public%2F&amp;seed_title=The+loss+of+church+as%26%23160%3Bpublic#comment-3032</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Sep 2008 08:53:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=104#comment-3032</guid>
		<description>Much of my thinking on leaders and institutions has been influenced by Eph 4:11 - that leaders are "to prepare God's people for works of service" - which I (mis?)interpret to mean release, empower, etc. everyone to fulfil their destiny/mission/calling, etc. in whatever sphere they find themselves. And then to celebrate all that God is doing in/through others. Leaders are to be the "servants of the servants of God" (St Gregory).

My experience was that almost nothing that takes place "in church" (that should be an oxymoron) achieves this, and that any clergy/laity (or leader/follower) distinction exacerbates the problem.

Although the church I'm a member of is a (stereo?)typical large charismatic evangelical one, the leaders have (perhaps as much to their surprise as anyone's) 'released' us into multifarious "Mission Shaped Communities", where we are free to experiment with trying to be communities for others without institutional baggage. It's a challenge, but my experience is that it's a model that appears to have some mileage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Much of my thinking on leaders and institutions has been influenced by Eph 4:11 - that leaders are &#8220;to prepare God&#8217;s people for works of service&#8221; - which I (mis?)interpret to mean release, empower, etc. everyone to fulfil their destiny/mission/calling, etc. in whatever sphere they find themselves. And then to celebrate all that God is doing in/through others. Leaders are to be the &#8220;servants of the servants of God&#8221; (St Gregory).</p>
<p>My experience was that almost nothing that takes place &#8220;in church&#8221; (that should be an oxymoron) achieves this, and that any clergy/laity (or leader/follower) distinction exacerbates the problem.</p>
<p>Although the church I&#8217;m a member of is a (stereo?)typical large charismatic evangelical one, the leaders have (perhaps as much to their surprise as anyone&#8217;s) &#8216;released&#8217; us into multifarious &#8220;Mission Shaped Communities&#8221;, where we are free to experiment with trying to be communities for others without institutional baggage. It&#8217;s a challenge, but my experience is that it&#8217;s a model that appears to have some mileage.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie Boyd</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F04%2F18%2Fthe-loss-of-church-as-public%2F&amp;seed_title=The+loss+of+church+as%26%23160%3Bpublic#comment-3022</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie Boyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Sep 2008 08:51:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=104#comment-3022</guid>
		<description>I enjoyed reading the above descriptions of the search for 'public church'At present I find myself in a private 'God space' outside groups that define themselves as 'Churches'.At present my reationships with other Christians ( a diverse lot I may add) is my community.Many Christians in Northern Ireland are suffering greatly from the effects of 'church attendance' and membership ( whatever that really means).The alternative New Churches have become clones of the old traditional ones based on power systems of control by usually a 'charismatic' preacher pastor.I have found the writings of Rene Girard revolutionary in my understanding of the rivalry that causes group expressions of Chritianity to explode apart or fracture.Zealous followers of talented 'model' believers are sucked into a web of rivalry and interpersonal violence before being expelled.This model of community based on gifted leadership is bound to implode and deny the claims of the Gospel ( look how they love one another!). Emerging church thinkers are let's face it as rivalous as the standard pastor/teacher/healer evangelist/ prophet of fundamentalist revivalism.A believing friend of mine says he has chosen to be discipled by 'the world' instead of the church - at first cynical of his statement I am beginning to see what he means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoyed reading the above descriptions of the search for &#8216;public church&#8217;At present I find myself in a private &#8216;God space&#8217; outside groups that define themselves as &#8216;Churches&#8217;.At present my reationships with other Christians ( a diverse lot I may add) is my community.Many Christians in Northern Ireland are suffering greatly from the effects of &#8216;church attendance&#8217; and membership ( whatever that really means).The alternative New Churches have become clones of the old traditional ones based on power systems of control by usually a &#8216;charismatic&#8217; preacher pastor.I have found the writings of Rene Girard revolutionary in my understanding of the rivalry that causes group expressions of Chritianity to explode apart or fracture.Zealous followers of talented &#8216;model&#8217; believers are sucked into a web of rivalry and interpersonal violence before being expelled.This model of community based on gifted leadership is bound to implode and deny the claims of the Gospel ( look how they love one another!). Emerging church thinkers are let&#8217;s face it as rivalous as the standard pastor/teacher/healer evangelist/ prophet of fundamentalist revivalism.A believing friend of mine says he has chosen to be discipled by &#8216;the world&#8217; instead of the church - at first cynical of his statement I am beginning to see what he means.</p>
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		<title>By: dan Wilt</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F04%2F18%2Fthe-loss-of-church-as-public%2F&amp;seed_title=The+loss+of+church+as%26%23160%3Bpublic#comment-2798</link>
		<dc:creator>dan Wilt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=104#comment-2798</guid>
		<description>Jason, would you do us the honor of painting, with brushes of faith, culture and history, a brief paragraphical image of what this brand of corporate faith looks and acts like - just to aid this discussion?

I.e. Can you convert this to a metaphor, possibly in contradistinction to another?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason, would you do us the honor of painting, with brushes of faith, culture and history, a brief paragraphical image of what this brand of corporate faith looks and acts like - just to aid this discussion?</p>
<p>I.e. Can you convert this to a metaphor, possibly in contradistinction to another?</p>
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		<title>By: Greig</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F04%2F18%2Fthe-loss-of-church-as-public%2F&amp;seed_title=The+loss+of+church+as%26%23160%3Bpublic#comment-2712</link>
		<dc:creator>Greig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:17:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=104#comment-2712</guid>
		<description>Some really interesting thoughts here.  

One phrase I picked up on was the church as 'public'.  At its very nature the call of the church is to be public.  jesus was public in His ministry, much to the disturbance and annoyance of those around Him.  Yet it was not His simple acts they felt uncomfortable with, it was their consequences in relation to the reaction of the public toward their posotions of power. 

The term public to me suggests the existence of relationship.  To be in public means to be in a relationship, in whatever form that takes. This reflects the existence of God as Trinity.  He exists as relationship, modelling unity and holiness.  As a church, we should then be modelling unity in everything we do.  As individuals, we should also be modelling holiness, just as Jesus did when He was here on earth.  

Whether we are in community within our groups of believers or within contemoprary society, we have a call to act out our lives of worship in response to the needs of the people around us.  This reflects the traditional biblical view of worship as a political act, rather than a gathering of believers simply singing songs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some really interesting thoughts here.  </p>
<p>One phrase I picked up on was the church as &#8216;public&#8217;.  At its very nature the call of the church is to be public.  jesus was public in His ministry, much to the disturbance and annoyance of those around Him.  Yet it was not His simple acts they felt uncomfortable with, it was their consequences in relation to the reaction of the public toward their posotions of power. </p>
<p>The term public to me suggests the existence of relationship.  To be in public means to be in a relationship, in whatever form that takes. This reflects the existence of God as Trinity.  He exists as relationship, modelling unity and holiness.  As a church, we should then be modelling unity in everything we do.  As individuals, we should also be modelling holiness, just as Jesus did when He was here on earth.  </p>
<p>Whether we are in community within our groups of believers or within contemoprary society, we have a call to act out our lives of worship in response to the needs of the people around us.  This reflects the traditional biblical view of worship as a political act, rather than a gathering of believers simply singing songs.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Foulkes</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F04%2F18%2Fthe-loss-of-church-as-public%2F&amp;seed_title=The+loss+of+church+as%26%23160%3Bpublic#comment-1438</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Foulkes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:02:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=104#comment-1438</guid>
		<description>This is very thought-provoking and I'm grateful for it. I travel part of the UK visiting 'Fresh Expressions' set-ups, and I think the analysis you offer is perhaps too pessimistic. Where Christians are able to retain an authenticity, what one described to me as 'rawness', and truly rely on God at work in the world and in their lives, then mission does happen, and secularised people become part of the believing community. The institutions are problematic, because they are threatened by what they cannot control, and because they do not look as if they are appropriate places to send new believers. The C of E has managed to loosen itself up in what it will permit; but it has not yet directed itself to engage with it (at least one Diocese has effectively opted out in the UK). 

Within the institutions, it often seems to me the central issue is that individuals adopt the mores of the institution in order to gain esteem and self-justification, such that the continuity of the institution is essential to their psychological well-being. Often, too, individuals gain significant power or influence over others. Self-interest prevents the embrace of outward-looking, publicly oriented activities. The leaders who we may recognise as having authentic spiritual authority and depth are generally those who are not deriving their self-esteem from the institution. So, in conservative institutions such as churches, those who exercise true leadership either have to do so from the margins, as radicals, or somehow rise despite the institution to positions of influence. Making the same point the other way around, any leader who derives their authority on the basis of their status within the institution is automatically suspect. 

Therefore the search for public presence - which I agree is vital - is naturally perceived as hostile to the interests of the institutions unless those involved adopt personal disciplines or communal disciplines that challenge the tendencies to institutional self-serving. This is always patchy but thank God such people exist, it does happen, and we all know many of them!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is very thought-provoking and I&#8217;m grateful for it. I travel part of the UK visiting &#8216;Fresh Expressions&#8217; set-ups, and I think the analysis you offer is perhaps too pessimistic. Where Christians are able to retain an authenticity, what one described to me as &#8216;rawness&#8217;, and truly rely on God at work in the world and in their lives, then mission does happen, and secularised people become part of the believing community. The institutions are problematic, because they are threatened by what they cannot control, and because they do not look as if they are appropriate places to send new believers. The C of E has managed to loosen itself up in what it will permit; but it has not yet directed itself to engage with it (at least one Diocese has effectively opted out in the UK). </p>
<p>Within the institutions, it often seems to me the central issue is that individuals adopt the mores of the institution in order to gain esteem and self-justification, such that the continuity of the institution is essential to their psychological well-being. Often, too, individuals gain significant power or influence over others. Self-interest prevents the embrace of outward-looking, publicly oriented activities. The leaders who we may recognise as having authentic spiritual authority and depth are generally those who are not deriving their self-esteem from the institution. So, in conservative institutions such as churches, those who exercise true leadership either have to do so from the margins, as radicals, or somehow rise despite the institution to positions of influence. Making the same point the other way around, any leader who derives their authority on the basis of their status within the institution is automatically suspect. </p>
<p>Therefore the search for public presence - which I agree is vital - is naturally perceived as hostile to the interests of the institutions unless those involved adopt personal disciplines or communal disciplines that challenge the tendencies to institutional self-serving. This is always patchy but thank God such people exist, it does happen, and we all know many of them!</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Clark</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F04%2F18%2Fthe-loss-of-church-as-public%2F&amp;seed_title=The+loss+of+church+as%26%23160%3Bpublic#comment-1330</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 18:13:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=104#comment-1330</guid>
		<description>Hi DG,

I think in some way places like the UK are secular enough, that for most people they are pre-christian.  The Christian story means very little if nothing to them, and they encounter it no where.

Then a large number of christians are 'post-church' with their faith, moving into private God spaces. 

So I think all these elements are situated together at present.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi DG,</p>
<p>I think in some way places like the UK are secular enough, that for most people they are pre-christian.  The Christian story means very little if nothing to them, and they encounter it no where.</p>
<p>Then a large number of christians are &#8216;post-church&#8217; with their faith, moving into private God spaces. </p>
<p>So I think all these elements are situated together at present.</p>
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		<title>By: D.G. Hollums</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F04%2F18%2Fthe-loss-of-church-as-public%2F&amp;seed_title=The+loss+of+church+as%26%23160%3Bpublic#comment-1329</link>
		<dc:creator>D.G. Hollums</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 14:42:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=104#comment-1329</guid>
		<description>I wonder today, if we have gone past "Post-Christian" and (especially in Europe and the UK) are now back full circle in "Pre-Christian". This; of course, saddens me but also provides hope that Christianity can grow and thrive in such worlds. But, I wonder if others have considered this and if it would affect in any way what and how we praxis the Kingdom in this world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder today, if we have gone past &#8220;Post-Christian&#8221; and (especially in Europe and the UK) are now back full circle in &#8220;Pre-Christian&#8221;. This; of course, saddens me but also provides hope that Christianity can grow and thrive in such worlds. But, I wonder if others have considered this and if it would affect in any way what and how we praxis the Kingdom in this world.</p>
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