Always read the label: diagnosing me and my church pains
30 Oct 2008
Paul writes… even though I believe in the importance of a regular physical gathering of the Christian community I still struggle with it.
Like my aching shins and knees after a run I have some problems that only come out in me when I do church. My running aches and grumbles reflect the symptoms of my condition rather than the condition itself (my basic unfitness). I wonder if if it is the same with my church pains?
So what are my symptoms/diagnosis and suggested cure when it comes to my struggles with church? I’ve set out 5 below that affect me. I’ve tried to write what my symptoms are, what i diagnose from that and possible treatment and side effects of still involving myself in church.
Symptom 1: I’d rather do something else on a sunday than going to church
My time is precious and valuable and church just doesn’t really fit into my life easily on a regular basis.
Diagnosis: I find church inconvenient as I have to fit my life around it rather than it nicely falling into a time/place of my own choosing
Treatment:Practice going to church and welcome the inconvenience as a reminder that my life is not just about me doing what I want when I want.
Possible side effects: I have a growing awareness of how often in life I hate it when I’m inconvenienced – traffic queues, slow people with dragging suitcases on wheels, my kids losing the TV remote. I have yet to be tempted to deliberately join the longest check out queue to practice patience but I am swearing a bit less at my fellow motorists.
Symptom 2: Church is full of annoying people who deliberately wind me up!
I like to hang out with people like me and I like to chose those people for myself after a careful screening process.
Diagnosis:I like being independent and self sufficient. I don’t like to get involved with people who I otherwise would never ever want to be with (the drips, the drags, the dull, the demonstrably unstable etc) who annoy me.
Treatment: To quote “God” [aka Morgan Freeman in Evan Almighty] ““When someone prays for patience, do you think He gives them patience? Or does he give them moments to practice patience? When someone prays for courage, do you think God gives them courage? Or does he give them a moment to be courageous?” Maybe all those annoying people are moments to practice love, patience, grace as well as swearing?
Possible side effects: I have a growing self awareness that maybe I am just as annoying and offensive to others as they are to me. Sometime I can be charitable enough to admit that maybe their efforts to wind me up are meant to be their way of practicing love and patience with me.
Symptom 3: Church is too much like hard work
It’s not that I’m lazy but church seems to require so much effort and I’m already tired/busy/committed in the rest of my life. Trying to fit into a church environment is a struggle, do I just turn up when I can and spectate or is there value in the discomfort of getting involved?
Diagnosis:What do I organise my life around? What is most helpful in shaping, growing and keeping my faith?
Treatment:Decide what to organise my life around, is it what fits in with me and everything else I do or do I take the plunge and decide that church with all of its problems still has benefits? Take a challenge to practice committing myself for a period of time, get involved, give, participate rather than spectate. Evaluate.
Side effects: My involvement/participation has increased my sense of purpose and helped my understanding of other people. I have had to face issues within me as well as my issues with others. I am learning to serve and not just expect to be served. I am also learning that what I do shows tht values I have and not what I say I value.
Symptom 4: Church is an irrelevant in 21st century for me to have my faith in Jesus
I don’t need a church to help me maintain that faith given the level of resources available and accessible to support me as a christian in 21st century. What is most important therefore is follow Jesus in my life in the mission/call he has given me within my job, friends, family, interests etc.
Diagnosis:My faith has telescoped down to involving me, Jesus and selected others. I am following a consumeristic faith where the Church will still be there if I get into trouble and I can still contribute via purchasing/accessing/creating resources.
Treatment:There are good reasons I dress my choices up in, it allows me to maintain a faith and can also allow me to do what else I am passionate about in my life. I can well find intergrating with a local church difficult as my choice can be limited and the people in it not on my wavelength. Challenge my consumeristic nature by choosing to deliberately get involved and create/give into a community or create that community if it does not exist?
Side effects:I am decreasing my pseudo-holy sounding reasoning – and facing up to doing what I do cos its what I want to do no matter how holy i dress it up to sound. I’ve found that increased participatation has led to more listening rather than spectating and complaining.
Symptom 5: church brings out the worst in people (me): religion, rules rejections
Church makes me feel like an outsider or it makes other people feel like outsiders and I don’t want to be part of that. It brings out all the ugly side of religion as people beat up on each other.
Diagnosis I have been hurt by church before and I am afraid, I don’t want to get hurt again. I also don’t want anyone to challenge me and what I do even if it is with the best of intentions or most loving of motives. I want to do what I want and I am happy.
Treatment:If I have been hurt before can I ease my way back in, can I forgive, can I not project my past onto my future? Can I escape and break free of my fears?
Am I open to people caring about me enough to challenge me? What is it that offends me about challenge? Am I so used to having what I want that for something to be closed to me offends me?
Side effects:A growing realisation of not only when i have been hurt but also that I have been hurtful myself. Honestly involving myself with others in a relationship has its beautiful moments and its painful/hurtful ones too. Both have helped me grow/change me for the best.
Do you recognise any of these pains yourself or do you have ones of your own? What are your own diagnosises, treatments and side effects you’ve discovered?
41 comments
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Comment by Helen
5.38 pm on 30 Oct 2008
I recognize these relational and structural challenges from my life in general even though I’m not currently a churchgoer. I still encounter people I don’t always feel like interacting with and have activities scheduled which I don’t always want to do
I think the biggest thing is not letting my fears drive my choices. Under “I don’t want” there’s usually an “I’m afraid” and the best way to disarm the power of the fears is to do what they are trying to stop me doing. Almost always, the worst never happens – the people aren’t as scary as I thought, the activity isn’t as bad, unexpected rewards transpire because I got out there and did the thing I didn’t want to do. Not least of which is the sense of accomplishment rather than the guilt I feel if I give in to my fears.
Not sure if that will help anyone else…
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Comment by Pippa
6.29 pm on 30 Oct 2008
This helps, Helen. Thanks. I often have quite negative expectations about church based, as you say, on fears, but like you I normally find the anticipation is worse than the event.
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Comment by Helen
9.07 pm on 30 Oct 2008
Thanks Pippa – I’m glad it helps!
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Comment by linda llewellyn
4.16 pm on 12 Nov 2008
Never give up, keep on trying you will get there in the end. Look to the Lord not at people as they will always let you down. There is no perfect church.
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Comment by Paul
6.54 pm on 30 Oct 2008
Thanks Helen, yes I know what you mean. I put off going for a wine tasting day that I got bought as birthday present for neary a whole yr cos I was scared to go by myself. I had to go in the end as it was about to run out and had a very wonderful tipsy day
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Comment by Helen
9.08 pm on 30 Oct 2008
So church can be scary but not as scary as a wine tasting day?
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Comment by Paul
8.14 am on 31 Oct 2008
lol, well it can be. Now a church wine tasting day however…
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Comment by rodney neill
10.27 am on 31 Oct 2008
I am struggling on the edge of church having chosen to go back after a renewal of faith experience some years ago (I left church for many years)
If you do not believe in penal substitution it is hard to listen to songs/sermons that extol this doctrine as fundamental to the Christian faith. Or semons about David that sound more about ethnic cleasing than a God of love. I have good friends in the church which has a lot to offer but those sermons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In truth I am probably a ‘post-evangelical’ who struggles with many parts of reformed evangelical orthodoxy that pervades Northern Ireland Christianity.
However I did go ouch! as I recognised myself in many of your perceptive points..so it is back to the struggle to attend!
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Comment by Paul
10.42 am on 31 Oct 2008
Thanks Rodney, yes i can relate to both the songs (well I struggled with singing for a long time) and seroms. In the end I’ve found that sometimes asking myself why I feel uncomfortable is a great Q. Why does it bug me so much and how do I respond in the light of partipating and wrestling with views/thoughts that are different to my own. Sometimes its all too much, sometimes I just end up feeling smug and sometimes I wonder if I’ve really got it all together…
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Comment by rodney neill
10.31 am on 31 Oct 2008
serMons about david that sound more about ethnic cleaNsing…my spelling has gone badly downhill
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Comment by Paul
10.38 am on 31 Oct 2008
I can relate, I don’t think my spelling has ever gone uphill
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Comment by rodney neill
12.46 pm on 31 Oct 2008
Sometimes I am so fustrated as the sermon teaching is presented as the ‘offical and only correct’ perspective whereas I know from reading that there is a variety of points of view on this subject – there is no opportunity for Q and A or discussion….
To be honest the panel of 6 speakers who take turns preaching have no theological training and are not aware/would not listen to alternative views which would sound heretical and would challenge the status quo
I am aware as i write this I might sound snooty/superior/smug..I do not mean to
Rodney
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Comment by Charlie Boyd
6.07 pm on 31 Oct 2008
Paul
One or two thoughts from a recovering ‘church’ attender!
You say it is important for a regular physical gathering of Christian community and then equate it with church attendance which I suspect you mean going to a service on Sunday mornings for an hour or two.This will probably involve some ‘community singing’ known as worship,a couple of prayers,a financial offering ( maybe even a tithe),a sermon or homile by the resident religious expert,possibly the eucharist, an ‘alter call’ (depending on your tradition?),a farewell blessing,a shake of a few hands and finally a cup of coffee ( if its a 21st century church!!?)
To me this is not the same as the gathering (ekklesia) of Christ’s faith community as described in the New Testament.Community is organic like the cells of aliving organism not a staged institutional event.One is part of the ekklesia by spiritual rebirth and will be with others of the ekklesia in many and different ways.Liquid church sounds like a good term.
Why do you feel uneasy in ‘church’ if it is where God loves to come and meet with His people? Simple – He may not come and you may not meet with Him there.Instead of being aware of the Spirit your antennae are picking up lots of other things.What other things?
Being spiritual beings we pick up lots of other influences at church services:
Rivalous relationships
Power plays by ‘leaders’
Uniformity of ‘belief’ as basis of togetherness
Passivity as we watch each others necks
Preservation of the institution in the guise of God’s will
Some weird and exclusive teachings based on bad exegesis of Scripture wwhich give a feel or being either in or out of the group.
Irrelevance to the outside problems of society
The list could go on – I for one gave up regular attendance at such institutions in order to save my mental and spiritual health.
We have the view that God’s will is hard and that suffering/discipline are sent along by Him in many forms including ‘church attendance’A lot of this stems from a wrong view of God and indeed a wrong view of the cross.We interpret taking up our cross as having to go to ‘church’ and do the things that ‘our flesh’ doesn’t like.
My yoke is EASY and MY burden is LIGHT – if it feels HEAVY get out of there.Go for a walk in the woods,listen to the birds sing and once you sense His overwhelming love go back and relate to His kids over a coffee.
Can I recommend a dangerous book?It’s Martin Zender’s ‘How to Quit Church without Quitting God’.You might disagree with some of his ideas but it will reshape your perception of how we are to participate in Christian community.
Charlie Boyd
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Comment by Paul
1.59 pm on 3 Nov 2008
Hi Charlie, thanks for your comments.
A couple of thoughts that spring to my mind whilst reading them:
* I’m not sure how any gathering institutional/organic/solid/liquid etc can just be some sort of spontaneous gathering. From my reading of the NT gatherings seemed to be quite intentional (as an aside I’m always amused at adverts for psychic fairs cos surely they should be the one grp who could jus all meet spontaneously :.
Clearly judging by my reading of the NT there was quite a lot going wrong in their gatherings today just as there is today. All those letters about mistakes, excesses, self indulgences, crazy self serving piety, class/race/gender struggles etc apply as much today as then. However so much of what was good about the NT churches then is also so good today too, kindness, love, giving, worship, witness etc that goes on with people’s lives being challenged and changed as they served and followed Jesus together.
* church is partly about gathering on a sunday, its certainly important in the life of the community to gather together on a sunday but it is not the most important thing nor is it the sum of all the life of the church. Sunday gathering for me is about reconnecting, in a wk where i can see no christians at work it is a place to recentre myself, to reconnect with my faith and with people who follow Jesus as well.
It is often a place where i get challenged (as opposed to someone saying just do what makes me feel happy or what gets me through life on my own), where I get to serve, where i don’t get to be in charge and decide what happens. It is also a means through which i’ve met many people who support and help me in my life and provides further opportunities to reconnect through out the week with them.
* I think you describe a certain form of church which is not going to be everyone’s cup of tea. But that to me seems to be like describing say a pub as just a place with chairs, dodgy decor and a range of beers on tap or a coffee house as place where over priced coffee gets flogged in a living room esque environment. In other words the functions you describe are meant to faciliate something just as the beers on tap are meant to faciliate something. I can’t see why any gathering organic or institutional where people are doing something to faciliate something should always be amazing or crap, to my mind it’s going to be a mixture.
We are very lucky, we live in a western world where we chose our coffee shop, pub or church and if we don’t like it then like a good consumer we take our business else where and find one that is more condusive to us. I’m not saying its bad to leave church and find one that is more suitable to us all I’m saying is that we get to enjoy that luxury and I can get lazy/complacent about and treat churh like anyother part of my consumer pro-my choice life.
* which brings me to my last thought, that humans are flawed. If i had a strap line to following Jesus it would be cos my humanity is cracked and in Jesus is my only hope of learning/experiencing/remebering what true humanity really is. In a church (or indeed any people grp context) for me that means that I will have numerous problems with numerous people and vice versa. Perhaps the real miracle of church is not that we have some amazing unifying spirtual experience but that we can actually still meet in a room with each other. A
As much as I love the free liquid idea of church i fear that it would jus be far too much temptation for me to float off and shape my faith, like i already do to much in the rest of my life, around me and what ever i want to do whenever i want to do it.
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Comment by Carl Peet
9.52 am on 1 Nov 2008
Hi Folks, I understand both sides of the argument, church can be awful- but then so can any public gathering! However I concur with the ‘Evan Almighty’ quote, church gives us opportunity to develop relationship and have some of the rough edges knocked off. Being a follower of Jesus requires us being in relationships of ‘embarassing accountability’.Or should I say Christian relationships of ‘embarassing accountability’ Also Christ instituted church and think of the many followers martyred so as to enable us to gather together and share fellowship, worship and celebrate our relationship with Jesus. As someone who has attended charismatic, pentecostal, messianic and high church celebrations at one time or another I don’t feel precious toward any one expression of church, but I do want to emphasize the importance of fellowship, worship and coming together in the body. We should be members of an active Christian community, actively exploring, expressing and celebrating our common unity in Christ. The stirrings in the New Monastic movement and communities such as Missio Dei and The Simple Way excite me, as I was feeling dissilusionment in line with Charlie, however as Scripture shows that which man holds sacred God does not, and just as he stirred the spirits of the Prophets and Judges and then sent His Son to bring spiritual revolution, we serve a God who will always have His way. And I feel the stripping down and simplification of what it means to follow Christ is an example of this. Having a firm grasp of systematic theology isn’t following Jesus, neither is being a firm tither/ regular attendee/chief potwasher. Loving God, Loving fellow man and following Jesus are the badge of a follower. There are many many congregations who know Jesus in this way and are seeking to live as a prophetic statement in these days, actively involved in the communities God has placed them, holistically minded and serving God and man in a radical way. This has had a knock on effect upon the mainstream church with ideas of fresh expression being explored, so in closing lets not forget we serve a God who is no respecter of persons, a God who can and will upset the status quo of our Westernised Man shaped gospel. Praise God that it is He who is stirring up disillusionment with the stale structures with which we’ve attempted to hem Him in with. Praise God that He is stirring up the desire to fall 100% in love with Him once more, to live lives of sold out 24/7 faith……I’m excited!!!
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Comment by Charlie Boyd
11.38 am on 1 Nov 2008
Carl I agree with a lot of what you say but in many cases it’s not a matter of having the rough edges being knocked off rather than being crucified and left for dead outside the camp.The scapegoat mechanism of ‘righteous sacrifice’ that Jesus came to expose by his death is unfortunately alive and well in many church groups.It’s the elephant in the room that many believers cannot see.Personally when I get together with fellow believers I look for a shared brokenness and awareness of the nature of the One we are gathering around.I can get plenty of edges knocked off me out there with those who are caught up in the mimetic game of sucking the life out of as many attachments as they can.New models of church are encouraging but until scapegoating is unmasked in our communities and we are brutally honest we are playing a self righteous game.These are my thoughts anyway having worked for 5 years in a high intensity ‘ agape’commited fellowship in my earlier years.To me loose uninstitutionalised fellowship encourages true agape not the hot house environment of an intense ‘radical’ community.These usually end in disillusionment and burn out.
Charlie
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Comment by Helen
3.54 pm on 1 Nov 2008
Charlie, while I agree that some churches are quite dysfunctional, I don’t think it’s fair to assert that all churches are so dysfunctional it’s better not to go to any of them.
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Comment by Carl Peet
4.53 pm on 1 Nov 2008
Hi Charlie, thanks for your response, I agree with what you say about the ‘brutality’ of fellowship. As a born again ex addict of 10 years, I’ve struggled to find a welcoming and inclusive church. My wife and I intend on setting up a hospitality house on our return to N.Wales with a view to being available to be used of God, no hierarchy, no ritual, just a Christian family willing to open their house and hearts and trust God will use us. I’ve recently left a Victory outreach church- which heralds its self as a street level ministry for ex gang members and addicts. However in no time at all I saw the middle class aspirational mindest at play, along with all of the masks and unspoken meta narratives we expect from Churchianity. I too have left Churchianity for my mental and physical health, however organic, relational, simple acts of fellowship, worship and service are still precious and vital to me. I can appreciate your point regarding the ‘hot house’ burn out effect, as i too have had involvement in a full on fellowship, and ended up feeling burnt out. But I can see validity in many expressions of Christian faith, and I see many churches earnestly seeking to be true to their context and calling. Again God knows, and no matter how stripped down, loose or uninstitutionalised the expression ultimately we sully it with our own touch. But praise God that He has a proven record in using individuals with rivalous attitudes and all the other traits previously mentioned. Anytime we get a group of believers in a room together we are dealing with a group of people who have different life experiences, and differing experiences of God within them, different expectations and presuppositions. These always makes for an interesting dynamic! and I’m yet to know a body of believers without these issues. So in closing I believe its Gods will for us to be unified in fellowship and belief, trusting and following Jesus, bearing with each other in love, loving the unlovely. Whether you find this in a 16th century chapel, school hall, or someones living room. Whether its a megachurch( you don’t know how hard it was to type that!) or a very simple group expression. Find Gods place and seek his face. And don’t be discouraged, Christ plays in a billion places….
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Comment by Paul
2.11 pm on 3 Nov 2008
Thanks Carl for the positve and realistic take on the state of our gatherings
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Comment by Charlie Boyd
7.16 pm on 1 Nov 2008
Helen
I personally believe that all churches are disfunctional to varying levels ( those built on religious enthusiasm usually more than others) by their very nature – they are made up of people who usually end up rivaling and scapegoating.This happens in all human groups and societies due to the members immitation or mimesis of each others desires which eventually results in ‘blocking’ and rivalry often answered by violence or expulsion.What causes a group of people so united at the start to eventually split and fragment is a study that French Philosopher and practicing Roman Catholic Rene Girard has written extensively about and I recommend his books.When we come to a defined group called ‘church’ with it’s own rituals and traditions the claim is made that the believers love God and one another (inherent in the Gospel message) – at first glance this appears true but on closer inspection it is often very far from true.My concern is not primarily for those who are satisfied with their ‘church’ membership or regular Sunday attendence.Instead my heart goes out to the multitude of folk who with a searching heart have gone to such groups believing that that is where they will find love only to be disillusioned and frozen out by the intense rivalry and power plays that lie hidden beneath the surface.The group I was a member of has literally hundreds of such casualties many of whom have lost all faith in Christ and His gospel.I realise that none of us are perfect but where these issues are swept under the ecclesiastic carpet and a ‘loving front’ presented as a form of love bombing it usually ends in great pain.
Of course there is an answer – namely mimesis with Christ who doesn’t rival back and to share our brokeness as we look to the Spirit to rewire our desires.The institutionalisation of believers into ‘churches’ can hinder this process rather than encourage it.In my opinion such vulnerability happens in the context of relationship Monday to Sunday and not in membership of a formal group that reminds one of ‘The Emperor’s New Clothes’.May God raise up more little boys to burst the ego of ecclesistical royalty.
Sincerely Charlie
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Comment by Charlie Boyd
7.45 pm on 1 Nov 2008
Carl
I can identify with all you say and think its great that you and your wife are opening up your home to show hopitality – this is exactly the heart of Christ’s message – meal fellowship showing Christ’s welcome for the marginalised.Brilliant.No us and them syndrome.You clearly have this heart because you yourself know the experience of being an outsider.To me what you are doing is ekklesia – the new called out community of God that lives differently from run of the mill society.
I feel my prophetic spirit welling up when I see a blueprint laid on people who come to faith.Start going to church – twice if possible on a Sunday,Wednesday night Bible Study/Prayer meeting,read your bible everyday,pray everyday,tithe every week,witness to ‘unsaved’,fast etc.Church is laid on new converts as God’s blueprint – I believe there is no blueprint for Christians exchanging life.We have turned Father God into a Chief Executive who runs His business called ‘Church’ with the full time ministry team as His board of Directors and the precher as His Sales Manager.
We could talk about the amount of finance spent in keeping the institution and it’s building going but that’s for another day.
Regards
Charlie
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Comment by Paul
2.10 pm on 3 Nov 2008
Charlie, you might be interested in a post Jason wrote about finances/institutions recently http://deepchurch.org.uk/2008/10/20/watering-church-lawns-and-other-absurd-reductionisms/
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Comment by Charlie Boyd
3.11 pm on 3 Nov 2008
Thanks Paul
I think I took part in the discussions based on Jason’s thoughts!
Charlie
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Comment by Paul
8.50 am on 4 Nov 2008
Thanks Charlie
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Comment by Trish
5.05 pm on 2 Nov 2008
The thing that upsets me most of all is the fact that there are all these wonderful believers all sitting there waiting for the one man to initiate something that they can get involved in. It drives me to despair and sadness. I know so many people like that who dont really have a “life with Jesus” of their own even though theyve “prayed the prayer”. Its just so sad. I dont go to a church like that by the way. I am involved in a community not like that. But I know so many people who are stuck in that and they dont understand anything beyond that and are afraid of anything different that the “man” didnt talk of. We need a change……….
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Comment by Paul
2.07 pm on 3 Nov 2008
Thanks Trish.
I’m glad you don’t go to a community like that. I just wonder whether these people/churches you refer to really do exist in that dimension? I mean they may be doing lots of things, collectively, individually, in smaller numbers etc that are faciliated by being connected through church. In fact if they are involved at all in anything that has got to be better than nothing?
I grew up in a church that did pretty much nothing for local people but was really involved in supporting missonaries and other societies and spent a lot of time praying, encouring and supporting these families around the world. The cynical part of me growing up jus thought we were outsourcing our responsility for mission buit now I’m feeling a lot more challenged, some one has to support these families why not that church.
Increasingly i’m thinking that it take all sorts of churches do all sorts of different things
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Comment by bev
1.36 pm on 4 Nov 2008
Hi Paul,
That was exactly my thought after reading all the above. I grew up Brethren-some may say “Wow,that’s heavy- guilt, bible bashing, law”, (as they did last night) but I can honestly look back and be grateful for the Bible teaching that is so much part of me now, and the “breaking of bread” every week which taught me about the Body of Christ and it’s sacredness, and reason to celebrate.
I am in a church now where we are not “preached” at every Sunday or have communion every Sunday, but I grow in this church now, too.
We need all sorts of churches, doing all sorts of things to reach all sorts of people at all stages of their lives
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Comment by Paul
8.30 am on 6 Nov 2008
Thanks Bev, I can relate from my own childhood experience of church and my own involvement in a community of practice now.
I totally agree with you about different churches doing different things, it’s one of our values at deep church to be +ive about church but not prescriptive about the functions/form of a church.
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Comment by israelj
8.49 pm on 9 Nov 2008
Jason,
I found your site while searching for a term that I had pop-up in my mind while being “spiritually attacked”. The term was Denial of Service Attack. I suppose you had been hit by someone. There are several schools of thought on that, one being something I ascribe to: you were probably doing something right. Those making the greatest impact for the Kingdom of Heaven are usually heavily attacked. You can leave this in comments if you want, or not, as the L-rd leads…sorry about writing a book.
On the subject, if you realize that the church is changing, and that the level of the L-rd in the church isn’t the same, then you are on the right path. If you have no idea, then pray fervently and accept the trials and troubles that come to help you. “Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the L-rd delivers them from them all”. This isn’t a joke, it isn’t some old euphemism, it’s the fact of the righteous life. I have personally been told by regular church-goers that I should not pray for patience, as I will go through trials. Ok. But I am trying to please G-d, not man, so how do I do that if I am listening to someone that is obviously hiding from G-d and doesn’t want to relinquish the areas of their life completely to HIM.
If you think you don’t have to allow the L-rd and HIS trials to hit you, and believe a rapture will swoop you out before you are going to have to endure persecution, then you are already in trouble. “let a righteous man strike me”. Isn’t Jesus the one that gets out the dross? HE is the one that controls the heat…
What are the things that the L-rd wants to root out of our lives, so we may be pleasing to HIM? If that is our goal, then we are “seeking first the Kingdom”, if we are hiding, then won’t HE be displeased? What does it matter if G-d is displeased? What about the talents…are you hiding your talent in the ground, hoping that the angels in charge of helping you be more like Jesus are going to pass you by? Don’t you know if you hide, like Jonah you will be spit out?
The fact is that many who claim to be Christian won’t make it. Why do I say that? The church is full of those who hide their talent, and won’t set their hearts to actually please the L-rd HIS way. What is HIS way? Does HE not demand justice? Mercy? An honest balance? “Rend your hearts, not your garments”, well, what does that mean? Love your neighbor as yourself, but also, “Thank you Father for not showing them (Pharisees, Saducees) the way to heaven (my emphasis)”. You see, if they found the way to Heaven, since they already mastered how to obey the outside rules and still be white-washed graves on the inside, they would just figure out how to do the same, and make it to Heaven anyway, while not having love and caring in their hearts. (if you only love your family, what is that? Even the heathen do this).
This is something you will have to digest, but if you are sure of your salvation, then watch out. If you question whether you are following the L-rd or not, then you are on the right path. Is that something to consider or what? After all, we are supposed to have “positive thinking” and say that we are saved period. Well, what was Paul (shaul) thinking about when he said “work out your salvation in fear and trembling”. We don’t really put much emphasis on that do we? In fact, Abraham and every other saint of the L-rd was saved by their faith (that’s true belief, through and through, not our confidence in HIM, not ourselves). Not repeating they are saved, like a mantra, but actually fearing the L-rd and believing in HIM through all the trials. You are off when you think of yourself as higher than other Christians, as though we were an authority that needs respect, that you or I are smarter, and deserve respect, why? Because you or I are saved by grace, that means we can’t brag about anything. If anything, we should be humble first, and thank the L-rd each day for our salvation, as this is not something that is tattooed on your heart permanently, or Paul wouldn’t have said to “work our salvation in fear and trembling”. Fear and trembling, well, isn’t Paul wrong? Then you don’t believe that the Word is inspired by the True and Living G-d. It takes faith to survive what is coming NOW on the earth. No more the “rapture will swoop you away” stuff, it was tough for those in the times of our L-rd, and will get tougher through these times. The L-rd will help us through this time-that’s what is significant. (by the way, if the Rapture does swoop us away, as many have believed, then you can reprimand me in Heaven, but what will you do if you believe this and it doesn’t occur? Also, our salvation has nothing to do with believing in or not believing in the rapture, and should not be a determiner of anything as it is just an event that people think may happen, and it hasn’t yet, has it? If your salvation is dependant on getting yanked out of here, then you have no faith or trust in HIM. People use this against others, and it causes much trouble).
Do you want to get closer to the L-rd? Then ask HIM to give you a servants heart. Ask for humility, ask for patience, pray for those that despitefully use you. Jesus hung out with the tax collectors and the prostitutes. HE didn’t sin, but HE didn’t hide either. When we are spiritually weak we stick to our groups and the front line is abandoned, those battling that could use the help and prayer are left to struggle on their own. This is “Christian City”. What makes you think it will be any different than in Jesus’ day? Even the Word points out how it will be like the days of Noah, that was really bad, he destroyed everyone except a hand full of people, that’s bad, HE also said there would still be marriages, etc.
Today’s Church is “Frog in the Water”. That sums it up.
Count it all joy, my bretheren, when you endure trials and afflictions, because the trying of your faith produces patience. Shouldn’t I just think that scripture is a myth? Pull up your knickers, this isn’t the church of the glorious wimps that give Glory and Honor to the L-rd Most High G-d, it’s the church of those without “spot or wrinkle”, and don’t think that those people will be the “churchy”, they won’t. They will be tried in battle, and trained for war-a spiritual war. Do you not know that the battle of the Spirit is much greater than that of the flesh? By prayer whole cities will someday be won for the L-rd, but you couldn’t do that with an army.
In the days of the inquisition, the “churchy” people were the ones to drag the righteous out of their homes, make them slaves, take their belongings and burn them at the stake. They did this with glee, they felt they were doing G-d’s will and enjoyed it. The Word says “vengeance is mine, saith the L-rd, I will repay”, it’s not our job, but the H-ly Spirit’s job to do that, HE burns with a fire, the dross of the soul. Don’t think that many wouldn’t do the same thing in this time as was done before, they would if they could. They can simply excommunicate you, deny you work, shelter, help, food, clothing (I came to your door and asked for food, clothing, shelter but you denied me, but L-rd? we didn’t see YOU at our door…), they are the ones in charge of things, with the businesses, in the government, deacons, ushers, people in authority in the Church, and if you tell them the truth, they will use their authority over your life to afflict and persecute you.
There are many with hate and bitterness in their hearts, even now, and the closer they see others conforming to the true parts of the Word that deal with the heart, not just the “tithe” or forcing people to go to the dry, stale, H-ly Spiritless churches that have become like gravestones instead of beacons of light and hope, the more they will want to destroy or attack them.
Even through all of this, we have to keep our love, that’s the point-they will know we are True Christians by our love. Be in the World, not of it.
They defeated the enemy by their testimony (what is a testimony but the survival through hardship?) and by the Blood of the Lamb.
The L-rd help us all, help us all to totally submit to HIM. Do you not remember in the Word where Jesus asked the rich man to sell all he had and follow HIM? What happened? Didn’t the rich man go away very sad, because he was wealthy? That means we have to understand that we live a life of personal sacrifice, we take up our Crosses daily (or do you not know what that means?) and follow Jesus by doing HIS good will each day and seeking HIM with all of our hearts.
If I sound like a sergeant in an army, or a veteran sent back to gather more troops, that would be more accurate. I call you from the front lines, the battle is on NOW, if we don’t submit to the L-rd and truly follow HIM without caring for what our relatives and fellow church goers think about it, then we are truly cowards and have no faith that HE will see us through. That is no excuse for doing wrong, the Word is very plain about that, ours is a spiritual battle and not one of vengeance. “Who is my mother? My Brothers? But those that do the will of my Father”. (my emphasis) this means that we have to let the dead bury the dead (those who have determined to live it safe) and we have to become all that the L-rd wants us to be.
What are you going to do when the administration sees that certain people are a threat to it’s existence and purpose? When they see that miracles are occurring, and that bothers them greatly because they want their homosexuality, and abortion rights, and they feel YOU are the thing holding them back from sexual freedom, freedom from guilt, and they see numbers of people coming to know the L-rd, and that will scare them more. And you know what? We now have laws that say they don’t have to even offer you an attorney if they have reason to believe you are going up against the governmental authority (do your research and check me on that) they can just lock you away, even take you out of the US and place you where you will be tortured. Think I am wrong there? Then you really do need to research it. Sound a bit like Jesus’ day? That’s because it’s getting that way. You see, one administration can place the law in, then something bad can happen, then the next administration may not be good people, and they now have a law they can abuse. You won’t be able to hide long, you will have to decide whether you serve the L-rd with all of your heart or not, and join either G-d’s army or the adversaries army.
Shalom
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Comment by Mel
11.51 pm on 9 Nov 2008
Paul, I agree with you, spiritual values in God’s people hold God’s love for everyone higher than functions/form. Spiritual form is attainable only in Him/in His truth.
The church in biblical perfection defined was created in the mind of our Lord the master builder. The many phases of the whole are wide and expressive, yet the one-on-one relationship with God cannot be ignored. In the strength of God’s spirit we are commanded to help the weaknesses of the weak. How to express that help and how to reach out and ask for help in a time of need is where the rubber meets the road. I think that sometimes what happens is a misinterpretation of what actually is strength. Then that slanted strength can wayside the help given to the weak. Good fruit would be the love, joy, peacemaker doctrine. Sometimes we overdress/camouflage for the purpose of surface sight. Are we truthful? Are we fearful of the ghosts of one another? Are we afraid to let our brothers/sisters see our true selfs? Christ can see our core heart beyond the fleshly. What spirit do we really carry? Try the spirits in a spiritual focus.
I think that our trials and victories in Jesus are deep church. Caring about one another’s souls means facing the mess Satan can put us all into and saving ourselves and helping others to keep focus on salvation. How this is approached is where the art of Christianity finds itself under the magnifier. Being full of faith overcomes the world; good stuff.
Personally, I have been a bit weak since losing my family member to cancer, yet the church is still there and it is that part of what I know I need, along with the one-on-one prayer line that “faith” and knowing that He loves everyone, is getting me by. Sometimes weaknesses can be transformed into strength.
Thanks for being here, church.
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Comment by Paul
1.19 am on 11 Nov 2008
Thanks Mel, much appreciated – you’ve made me stop and say thanks to my church community too and remind me of the good as well as the bad.
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Comment by Carl
1.10 am on 13 Nov 2008
Hi Folks, I’ve been thinking a LOT about some of the thoughts and emotions we’ve been sharing in this thread. And this came to me the other day on the walk to work. A thirsty man is interested in the water and not the cup.. I pondered on this and I think wherever and however you experience being church, ultimately it comes down to two things, are you being filled with The water, and are you sharing The water with the thirsty. Because in my own experience after wandering in the desert place for 26 years of my life, I didn’t care whether the cup was plastic, paper, polystyrene or finest bone china. I needed The water that Jesus offered. And that stands for me today, I need filling, renewing and refreshing and I’ll take it in whatever container/vessel God uses. This applies to our prayer, our worship, our fellowship, God uses anything and everything to get past the deafening roar of our own self powered jet engined egos. From time to time he uses people and places from which we don’t want to hear or go to. If you only want to drink from a mug He offers a cup, often times offending our sensibilities and causing discomfort. But still we thirst, and eventually when we can abate our thirst no more we reach out for that initially refused drink. And once we get past our initial discomfort and distaste, we taste that its good, I mean really good. And we realise its not the cup or the holding of the cup, but the thirst and the drinking which matter. So we begin to look for and accept The water whenever and wherever we find it irrespective of the outward appearance of the vessel. And we begin to see that those around us might be thirsty also. And the ones we thought would only drink from a contextually relevant injection moulded drinks faciliatation device actually might be interested in your chipped and cracked Sesame Street mug! So in closing lets keep it forefront that we’re dealing with The God who is more than enough, the kettles always on and He loves filling whatever we bring to the table…..
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Comment by Paul
6.01 pm on 14 Nov 2008
thanks Carl that is a great thought provoking analogy for me.
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Comment by Becky
1.06 am on 10 Nov 2008
I laughed aloud at some of your points Paul – in a good way! Thanks for sharing. Some of these points are really important in things that are going with me at the moment, particularly 2 and 5, and reading your post, and the subsequent comments, has given me more food for thought… thanks also to Charlie for some of your references.
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Comment by Paul
1.14 am on 11 Nov 2008
Thanks Becky, i’m glad its not only me who has all these crazy thoughts and you could recognize some of your own experiences too
. So do you have your own possible side effects that you are experiencing?
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Comment by Becky
3.22 pm on 12 Nov 2008
Symptom 6: Not being able to clearly distinguish between your church and a cult.
I was asked by a semi-Christian friend to distinguish between church and cult, and I had to conclude that the line can sometimes be a little blurry. We can be so unintentionally exclusive to those not ‘in the fold,’ and so horribly condemning and judgemental of those who are (maybe just temporarily) hanging around by the fence.
I confess and apologise that I’ve done it myself in the past; it’s certainly a horrible experience to be on the receiving end.
Church is a club – clique even – and there are joining and belonging rules like in any other. It’s probably right and fair to have some, but I’m certain the Jesus I love and experience would not freeze out or alienate those who were struggling, questioning, or feeling confused. Of course he had the advantage of being able to know one’s thoughts and deeds (!) and wasn’t just guessing blind, but I’m sure the ‘believing the best’ myth is at best just that – a myth. We’re too human to do otherwise, and we resort to gossip and Chinese whispers rather than being Jesus to each other.
To hear horrible things said about truly good people, and see others of more questionable motive and gifting rewarded and encouraged time and again… it easily leads me to forget and ignore all that IS good about church.
That’s what drives me away.
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Comment by Becky
3.32 pm on 12 Nov 2008
Oops.
Symptom:
Church does not feel like my experience of “family” – it’s lonely and exclusive
Diagnosis:
as above
Treatment:
Hmmm… I’m trying to avoid saying what I believe, which is to spend time elsewhere to get perspective, yet remain linked to remind myself of the positives, and trust and believe that I will regain the motivation I have lost. I’m sure the cult members would recommend taking responsibility for all of the above myself, and throwing myself into service and awkward social encounters and God will find me there but I struggle to believe that at the moment.
Possible side effects:
Leaving church. I’ve seen it happen. The above scenario is not purely my own experience, which is nice because I thought I was going crazy
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Comment by Paul
9.09 am on 14 Nov 2008
Thanks Becky. I sometimes joke that vineyard isn’t a cult as we’re just not organised enough for that
I know where you are coming from, i do it all the time in every social situation I am in. There are people who i can relate with and others who i can’t so I shape my encounters to try and avoid/exclude the latter.
When it comes to church i more than happy for anyone to turn up just so long as i can continue to self select my relationships and whose lives I will get dirty playing in. I find that the shock difference for me is how often Jesus would stop for any individual that was yelling for him.
I also find inclusion a difficult one, how do you apply a judgement rather than a rule? So that sometimes with some people certain things are excluded to help support changes in behaviour. I’m thinking that this is not un-Jesus like, for example, his invitation to the rich young ruler to give away all his cash and then come and follow him. A pre-condition of joining his disciples was this shock request to give up his cash.
Maybe in that sense I often deliberately self-exclude myself whilst insisting I be included. In other words as long as I can still do x or y or still have w & z I’ll follow Jesus. Maybe Jesus won’t settle for 2nd place and neither shud we? What jolts us out of this thinking? Maybe the shock of finding we can’t do everything without giving up something?
And if its a judgement rather than a rule it means that we’re going to be failable in it and get it right sometimes and wrong other times?
Enuff rambling from me, what do you think?
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Comment by Charlie Boyd
8.50 pm on 13 Nov 2008
Becky
There is whacky guy out there in Blog Land called Martin Zender at martinzender.com who has written a book entitled ‘How to Quit Church Without Quitting God’.I got 5 sent over to Ireland because it is like a sledgehammer that knocks one out of the ‘Churchy’ or ‘Christian’ world view!He is a believer in Jesus by the way!!!! Anyway he has a great chapter where he takes Bob Larsons (TV exorcist guy and pastor) signs of Cult membership (Moonies,Scientology etc.) and applies them to ‘church based chritianity’.The results are scarey but hilarious – he proves by Christianity’s own definition of a cult that it is actually one itself.This book will start thousands of wake up discussions.Get it!
Charlie
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Comment by linda llewellyn
4.26 am on 10 Nov 2008
I know churches have their problems and they are made up of human beings with all their faults. I know this if you love the Lord with all your heart and your will you want to go to Church to worship him and have fellowship with like minded people. The Church should be like a family where you can go and be accepted for who you are and hear the word. I think only housegroup Churches can provide this. If they get too big you lose that feel. Mind you I have been to some very dead churches in the past where the Holy Spirit has gone out of the door and religion has taken over.
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Comment by Paul
1.17 am on 11 Nov 2008
Thanks Linda, it’s good to remind ourselves again that we are all imperfect as human beings and therefore church is always going to be limited.
How churches structure themselves is another post really but I’m sure that there are many models that work out how to provide family/community care and contact and house churches is certainly one of those models.
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