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	<title>Comments on: What is a coffee house&#160;theology?</title>
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	<description>remembering our past to face our future</description>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F11%2F10%2Fwhat-is-a-coffee-house-theology%2F&amp;seed_title=What+is+a+coffee+house%26%23160%3Btheology%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-3648</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 17:07:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks Ed, much appreciated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Ed, much appreciated.</p>
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		<title>By: ed cyzewski</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F11%2F10%2Fwhat-is-a-coffee-house-theology%2F&amp;seed_title=What+is+a+coffee+house%26%23160%3Btheology%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-3620</link>
		<dc:creator>ed cyzewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 13:57:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=357#comment-3620</guid>
		<description>Daniel, Glad you&#039;ll be picking up a copy. I look forward to learning what you think of it. I haven&#039;t heard of Cafe Theology. It&#039;s amazing how many other books have similar titles. 

Paul, The language and dialect comparison seems to work. Though some dialects will be strong enough to almost sound like a different language at times... kind of like English in the U.K. has a host of different words that Americans would never use, even if we can generally understand one another. 

As far as the places where Christians need to influence culture... I advocate strongly for this in the book. While we have a calling to speak to our word using its terms and ideas, we have a prophetic calling to challenge the world as well. 

I don&#039;t know if I can pick out one area that is more important, though I think Christians need to experience and then demonstrate the love of God. Showing true love, acceptance, grace, and forgiveness have ramifications for so many areas. I think the west is known for our individualism, if not hyper-individualism, and so modeling love and grace to those around us can have a powerful impact in our communities, to say nothing of our governments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel, Glad you&#8217;ll be picking up a copy. I look forward to learning what you think of it. I haven&#8217;t heard of Cafe Theology. It&#8217;s amazing how many other books have similar titles. </p>
<p>Paul, The language and dialect comparison seems to work. Though some dialects will be strong enough to almost sound like a different language at times&#8230; kind of like English in the U.K. has a host of different words that Americans would never use, even if we can generally understand one another. </p>
<p>As far as the places where Christians need to influence culture&#8230; I advocate strongly for this in the book. While we have a calling to speak to our word using its terms and ideas, we have a prophetic calling to challenge the world as well. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if I can pick out one area that is more important, though I think Christians need to experience and then demonstrate the love of God. Showing true love, acceptance, grace, and forgiveness have ramifications for so many areas. I think the west is known for our individualism, if not hyper-individualism, and so modeling love and grace to those around us can have a powerful impact in our communities, to say nothing of our governments.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Cooling</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F11%2F10%2Fwhat-is-a-coffee-house-theology%2F&amp;seed_title=What+is+a+coffee+house%26%23160%3Btheology%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-3619</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Cooling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 12:08:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=357#comment-3619</guid>
		<description>Hello Ed,

I&#039;ve been reading this blog for a while now and am making my first post. Thanks for highlighting your book. I think guides like this are very valuable for theology&#039;s credibility and are great to have as gifts for people who are curious about taking thigs deeper.

I hope to get a copy of your book soon. It sounds great.

I wonder if you have come across Mike Lloyd&#039;s &#039;Cafe Theology&#039;, published in 2005.

Blessings,
Daniel</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Ed,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been reading this blog for a while now and am making my first post. Thanks for highlighting your book. I think guides like this are very valuable for theology&#8217;s credibility and are great to have as gifts for people who are curious about taking thigs deeper.</p>
<p>I hope to get a copy of your book soon. It sounds great.</p>
<p>I wonder if you have come across Mike Lloyd&#8217;s &#8216;Cafe Theology&#8217;, published in 2005.</p>
<p>Blessings,<br />
Daniel</p>
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		<title>By: Paul</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F11%2F10%2Fwhat-is-a-coffee-house-theology%2F&amp;seed_title=What+is+a+coffee+house%26%23160%3Btheology%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-3609</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:57:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=357#comment-3609</guid>
		<description>Hi Ed, thanks for the summary.  I like your expounded thought in the comment above about not having some grey amorphous singular theological porridge but a varied and learning one that is informed by the common traditions of the christian faith.  It makes me thing of our shared common tradition as a lanuage or reference points that we share in common but then our theologies developing as language does into local expressions and dialects -would that reflect the point you make?

You also mention culture and how that affects our theology.  Would you have any thoughts or insights on how our theology could impact on our surrounding cultures? Or indeed what aspects of our western culture need most impacting?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Ed, thanks for the summary.  I like your expounded thought in the comment above about not having some grey amorphous singular theological porridge but a varied and learning one that is informed by the common traditions of the christian faith.  It makes me thing of our shared common tradition as a lanuage or reference points that we share in common but then our theologies developing as language does into local expressions and dialects -would that reflect the point you make?</p>
<p>You also mention culture and how that affects our theology.  Would you have any thoughts or insights on how our theology could impact on our surrounding cultures? Or indeed what aspects of our western culture need most impacting?</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie Boyd</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F11%2F10%2Fwhat-is-a-coffee-house-theology%2F&amp;seed_title=What+is+a+coffee+house%26%23160%3Btheology%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-3603</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie Boyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:24:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=357#comment-3603</guid>
		<description>Ed
I realise that Constantine&#039;s grubby hands may have been over the creeds and that is one hell of a context!!!What do you come up with when the Emperor has a sword to your throat??? For me the life,death and bodily resurrection of Yeshua are the living beliefs/hopes.Deconstruction of those leads ultimately I believe to depression,despair and nihilism.

You will enjoy Girard - one of those influenced by him S Mark Heim also has a great book (one of the best I&#039;ve ever read) &#039;Saved From Sacrifice&#039;.Happy reading - I&#039;m jealous of you living in lovely Vermont!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed<br />
I realise that Constantine&#8217;s grubby hands may have been over the creeds and that is one hell of a context!!!What do you come up with when the Emperor has a sword to your throat??? For me the life,death and bodily resurrection of Yeshua are the living beliefs/hopes.Deconstruction of those leads ultimately I believe to depression,despair and nihilism.</p>
<p>You will enjoy Girard &#8211; one of those influenced by him S Mark Heim also has a great book (one of the best I&#8217;ve ever read) &#8216;Saved From Sacrifice&#8217;.Happy reading &#8211; I&#8217;m jealous of you living in lovely Vermont!!!</p>
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		<title>By: ed cyzewski</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F11%2F10%2Fwhat-is-a-coffee-house-theology%2F&amp;seed_title=What+is+a+coffee+house%26%23160%3Btheology%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-3601</link>
		<dc:creator>ed cyzewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 16:07:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=357#comment-3601</guid>
		<description>Thanks for stopping by Jason. Glad you liked the book.

Charlie, once again, you&#039;ve made some good points worthy of further reflection. I too would be a little skeptical of deconstructing the creeds, but I would say it is important to understand the context in which they were formed, specifically a response to or use of Greek philosophy. Nevertheless, the creeds were the formalization of the rule of faith that already existed in the church and it sure seems like they&#039;ve stood the test of time. 

Girard is on my list now. 

Regarding our use of theology... in the book I discuss the problem we have when Christians take scripture, the sword of the Spirit, and start using it as the sword of the Christians. The results aren&#039;t very pretty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for stopping by Jason. Glad you liked the book.</p>
<p>Charlie, once again, you&#8217;ve made some good points worthy of further reflection. I too would be a little skeptical of deconstructing the creeds, but I would say it is important to understand the context in which they were formed, specifically a response to or use of Greek philosophy. Nevertheless, the creeds were the formalization of the rule of faith that already existed in the church and it sure seems like they&#8217;ve stood the test of time. </p>
<p>Girard is on my list now. </p>
<p>Regarding our use of theology&#8230; in the book I discuss the problem we have when Christians take scripture, the sword of the Spirit, and start using it as the sword of the Christians. The results aren&#8217;t very pretty.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie Boyd</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F11%2F10%2Fwhat-is-a-coffee-house-theology%2F&amp;seed_title=What+is+a+coffee+house%26%23160%3Btheology%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-3596</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie Boyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:57:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=357#comment-3596</guid>
		<description>Ed thanks for getting back with your thoughts.
You must be a prophet because I have read Pete&#039;s books and in fact have discussed things with him as we both live in Northern Ireland!Pete is onto something about betrayal but I do believe that the Creeds of the 3 main Christian Traditions (Orthadox,Catholic and Protestant) are pivotal.Pete I believe, suggests deconstructing everything including the Creeds.I could deconstruct everything else about Christianity except the Creeds and the historicity of their content.I don&#039;t think Pete would agree but he is a great guy with lots of prophetic zeal and insights.I only hope that he gets an audience in the wider church/religious scene and not only in the fringe elements of the Emerging Movement.

I believe that the work of Rene Girard the French Anthropologist,Literature Professor and Christian thinker has revealed the root of so much that is disfunctional in society including the church.Mimetic desire which is rampant in religious communities ,leading to model obstacles and rivalry that lies hidden below the surface in &#039;Christianity&#039; as in all other human belief systems.Scapegoating is society&#039;s way of restoring peace to a troubled social grouping as was evidenced in Jesus own death.To cut a long story short I find Girard&#039;s theories match my day to day observance and experience of Christendom.HERE IS A PROVOCATIVE THOUGHT!!!
Theology has become just another weapon in the rivalry between warring doubles (Cain and Abel as a type) within the Body of Christ.What is supposed to lead us to God has become a weapon with which to kill our brothers!I think that dialogue and learning can only really take place when this hidden mechanism of rivalry and violence is exposed,acknowledged and owned.I find Christians one of the hardest groups of people to acknowledge their own internal and often external violence.It is covered over by piety and belief systems.Think of the recent fighting in Israel between Greek and Armenian monks over who should stand where in The Church of The Holy Sepulchre!Look how the Christians love one another!The reason few Christians,(especially religious leaders)let their theology change is that it is their weapon in the fight with fellow believers and non believers.When in a fight to the death no-one lays down their weapon.Only trouble is we claim to follow a man who did exactly that - let His enemies sacrifice him &#039;as a Lamb led to the slaughter&#039;
I would recommend Girard&#039;s books especially &#039;I Saw Satan Fall Like Lightning&#039; and  &#039;Things Hidden From The Foundation Of the World&#039;.Let&#039;s learn by dialogue but let&#039;s have some honesty first.Hope some of these thoughts help!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed thanks for getting back with your thoughts.<br />
You must be a prophet because I have read Pete&#8217;s books and in fact have discussed things with him as we both live in Northern Ireland!Pete is onto something about betrayal but I do believe that the Creeds of the 3 main Christian Traditions (Orthadox,Catholic and Protestant) are pivotal.Pete I believe, suggests deconstructing everything including the Creeds.I could deconstruct everything else about Christianity except the Creeds and the historicity of their content.I don&#8217;t think Pete would agree but he is a great guy with lots of prophetic zeal and insights.I only hope that he gets an audience in the wider church/religious scene and not only in the fringe elements of the Emerging Movement.</p>
<p>I believe that the work of Rene Girard the French Anthropologist,Literature Professor and Christian thinker has revealed the root of so much that is disfunctional in society including the church.Mimetic desire which is rampant in religious communities ,leading to model obstacles and rivalry that lies hidden below the surface in &#8216;Christianity&#8217; as in all other human belief systems.Scapegoating is society&#8217;s way of restoring peace to a troubled social grouping as was evidenced in Jesus own death.To cut a long story short I find Girard&#8217;s theories match my day to day observance and experience of Christendom.HERE IS A PROVOCATIVE THOUGHT!!!<br />
Theology has become just another weapon in the rivalry between warring doubles (Cain and Abel as a type) within the Body of Christ.What is supposed to lead us to God has become a weapon with which to kill our brothers!I think that dialogue and learning can only really take place when this hidden mechanism of rivalry and violence is exposed,acknowledged and owned.I find Christians one of the hardest groups of people to acknowledge their own internal and often external violence.It is covered over by piety and belief systems.Think of the recent fighting in Israel between Greek and Armenian monks over who should stand where in The Church of The Holy Sepulchre!Look how the Christians love one another!The reason few Christians,(especially religious leaders)let their theology change is that it is their weapon in the fight with fellow believers and non believers.When in a fight to the death no-one lays down their weapon.Only trouble is we claim to follow a man who did exactly that &#8211; let His enemies sacrifice him &#8216;as a Lamb led to the slaughter&#8217;<br />
I would recommend Girard&#8217;s books especially &#8216;I Saw Satan Fall Like Lightning&#8217; and  &#8216;Things Hidden From The Foundation Of the World&#8217;.Let&#8217;s learn by dialogue but let&#8217;s have some honesty first.Hope some of these thoughts help!</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F11%2F10%2Fwhat-is-a-coffee-house-theology%2F&amp;seed_title=What+is+a+coffee+house%26%23160%3Btheology%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-3594</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 14:38:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hi Ed, thanks so much for posting this here and for being available to people.  I loved you book.  Just sorry I am in Nairobi, and finding internet access difficult, and time to interact with you myself.  Jason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Ed, thanks so much for posting this here and for being available to people.  I loved you book.  Just sorry I am in Nairobi, and finding internet access difficult, and time to interact with you myself.  Jason.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Cyzewski</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F11%2F10%2Fwhat-is-a-coffee-house-theology%2F&amp;seed_title=What+is+a+coffee+house%26%23160%3Btheology%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-3589</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Cyzewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 13:23:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=357#comment-3589</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comments. Charlie, I&#039;d say you would find the new book by Pete Rollins an interesting the read: The Fidelity of Betrayal. I think you&#039;re asking some good questions regarding Western Theology in particular. We need to look at the kind of world we have and ask if our theology has played a part in it, which leads us to the other angle of asking how our culture has influenced our theology as well. I still think we can find some solid consensus in our creeds and the basics of the Christian faith, even if Christians have been messing things up throughout history.

Which brings me Rodney&#039;s comment. I hope I didn&#039;t sound too idealistic in my little summary of the book. On one hand, I believe that Christians who are holding to the historic, orthodox faith have some extremely important things in common, but I&#039;m not advocating for a soft ecumenical attempt to &quot;bring everyone together&quot; under none banner. I&#039;m talking about learning from one another, even if it means we have to say that fundamentalist Christianity in the West has fallen prey to culture. We don&#039;t have to &quot;accept&quot; that tradition, but we should look at and learn from this group because chances are we could be making similar mistakes, even if they&#039;re not as easily seen. Having said that, when we do have a basic consensus on the major creeds with fellow believers, we should be able to listen to one another and learn a thing or two, even if we don&#039;t end up adopting a different denomination&#039;s theology.

John Franke calls this approach &quot;interdependent particularity.&quot; We know we have limited perspectives and so we need to learn from fellow followers of Christ. However, we can still maintain our unique, or particular, perspectives on theology. 

There&#039;s a lot I&#039;m not getting into here, but I&#039;ll things at that and follow up if needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comments. Charlie, I&#8217;d say you would find the new book by Pete Rollins an interesting the read: The Fidelity of Betrayal. I think you&#8217;re asking some good questions regarding Western Theology in particular. We need to look at the kind of world we have and ask if our theology has played a part in it, which leads us to the other angle of asking how our culture has influenced our theology as well. I still think we can find some solid consensus in our creeds and the basics of the Christian faith, even if Christians have been messing things up throughout history.</p>
<p>Which brings me Rodney&#8217;s comment. I hope I didn&#8217;t sound too idealistic in my little summary of the book. On one hand, I believe that Christians who are holding to the historic, orthodox faith have some extremely important things in common, but I&#8217;m not advocating for a soft ecumenical attempt to &#8220;bring everyone together&#8221; under none banner. I&#8217;m talking about learning from one another, even if it means we have to say that fundamentalist Christianity in the West has fallen prey to culture. We don&#8217;t have to &#8220;accept&#8221; that tradition, but we should look at and learn from this group because chances are we could be making similar mistakes, even if they&#8217;re not as easily seen. Having said that, when we do have a basic consensus on the major creeds with fellow believers, we should be able to listen to one another and learn a thing or two, even if we don&#8217;t end up adopting a different denomination&#8217;s theology.</p>
<p>John Franke calls this approach &#8220;interdependent particularity.&#8221; We know we have limited perspectives and so we need to learn from fellow followers of Christ. However, we can still maintain our unique, or particular, perspectives on theology. </p>
<p>There&#8217;s a lot I&#8217;m not getting into here, but I&#8217;ll things at that and follow up if needed.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie Boyd</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/feeder/?FeederAction=clicked&amp;feed=Articles+%28RSS2%29&amp;seed=http%3A%2F%2Fdeepchurch.org.uk%2F2008%2F11%2F10%2Fwhat-is-a-coffee-house-theology%2F&amp;seed_title=What+is+a+coffee+house%26%23160%3Btheology%3F/comment-page-1/#comment-3588</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie Boyd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 10:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=357#comment-3588</guid>
		<description>Ed 
I have alot of sympathy with Rodney in his dialogue attempts to find common ground with the many and varied &#039;believers&#039;.Following Barak Obama&#039;s election I went to www.cbn.org (Pat Robertson&#039;s site) to see the reaction of conservative evangelical types in the USA.I was stunned by the reaction of many &#039;believers&#039; to Barak.I think if there had been stones handy he would have been stoned (and they criticise Isam!!).There is alot of weird theology out there that can be traced to American culture and Fundamentalism but I am begining to wonder if there are actually 2 religions around claiming to be Christianity.Rather than diversity I am seeing one of hatred and fear and one of humility and inclusivity.There is a need for good theology but I sense rivalry and hatred flowing from many varieties in the Western World.

Reformed theology was born in a violent age that was setting up a fledgling justice system and so much of what flows from it is steeped in violence (Father God orchestrating the violent death of His beloved Son to appease His justice - Penal Substitution theory).This is only one example of theology flowing from culture&#039;s interpretation of Scripture and I for one find it extremely scary.I am seriously thinking of giving up the &#039;Christian&#039; tag as it is an anathema to those without faith.Maybe it has always been so since the time of Constantine!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ed<br />
I have alot of sympathy with Rodney in his dialogue attempts to find common ground with the many and varied &#8216;believers&#8217;.Following Barak Obama&#8217;s election I went to <a href="http://www.cbn.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.cbn.org</a> (Pat Robertson&#8217;s site) to see the reaction of conservative evangelical types in the USA.I was stunned by the reaction of many &#8216;believers&#8217; to Barak.I think if there had been stones handy he would have been stoned (and they criticise Isam!!).There is alot of weird theology out there that can be traced to American culture and Fundamentalism but I am begining to wonder if there are actually 2 religions around claiming to be Christianity.Rather than diversity I am seeing one of hatred and fear and one of humility and inclusivity.There is a need for good theology but I sense rivalry and hatred flowing from many varieties in the Western World.</p>
<p>Reformed theology was born in a violent age that was setting up a fledgling justice system and so much of what flows from it is steeped in violence (Father God orchestrating the violent death of His beloved Son to appease His justice &#8211; Penal Substitution theory).This is only one example of theology flowing from culture&#8217;s interpretation of Scripture and I for one find it extremely scary.I am seriously thinking of giving up the &#8216;Christian&#8217; tag as it is an anathema to those without faith.Maybe it has always been so since the time of Constantine!</p>
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