Who then can be saved?
21 Apr 2009
Elizabeth writes… I’ve been thinking about Christian conversion and how we often view our own stories in a linear fashion and want to mark some point in time on a straight line from birth to death that marks our transition from not-a-Christian to Christian.
I have had discussions over the years with Christians on topics like, “Once saved, always saved,” and, “Can someone lose their salvation?” Interestingly, there are verses in the Bible that seem to leave these questions open.
All of this talk presumes a view of conversion as an “in-out” proposition. Let’s take a look at this in-out question…
Imagine Jesus invites Jill in. Jill accepts the invitation and lives in Christ for a number of years. Then one day, she decides she wants out. Can she get out? According to “once saved always saved” Jill can never get out. She may choose to act like she’s out, but she’s really still in and living in denial.
Then we have Andy, he wants in, but he’s not really sure he can live up to the standards of being in. He tries for a while, but royally screws up one day and is kicked out. Most of the time Andy still acts like he’s in, but he’s afraid if he tries to get back in, he’ll just screw up. According to “you can lose your salvation” thinking, Andy is out and will only be let back in if he behaves properly.
In either case, the in-out questions is answered in regards to a point in time. Is this the question we should be asking and trying to answer from our point of view?
In the Gospels Jesus uses many different metaphors or expressions when talking to people about faith:
you must be born again to see the kingdom of God (John 3:3),
he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him (John 6:56),
I am the light of the world, he who follows me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life (John 8:12),
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish: and no one shall snatch them out of My hand (John 10:27-28),
I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes n Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die (John 11:25-26),
I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me (John 14:6),
…and many more.
In just these few passages of Scripture we find complexity in what it means to be a Christian. Receiving, partaking, responding, relating, believing, choosing – all are part of the process of being converted, of choosing to follow Christ.
We are fooling ourselves if we think we can boil this mystery of being born again down into a brief moment in time when a person prays a prayer or walks an aisle to the altar. Even in physical human birth, the seed takes nine months to grow to the point of being birthed into this world.
Some have found it helpful to talk about different models of conversion, using:
set theory where in-out thinking is called bounded-set thinking, focused on the boundaries and whether a person is in or out; or
centered-set thinking focuses more on the process and the direction of the individual – are they moving toward the center – which in this case would be Jesus – or are they moving away.
Both of these models of conversion are still very linear and don’t leave much room for the complexities of life as we experience it.
Perhaps the study of complex systems and chaos theory could provide us with a workable model for conversion and help to change our thinking about evangelism and discipleship.
The term chaos when used in relation to chaos theory is at odds with the common usage of the term. We commonly think of chaos as complete disorder, but chaotic systems have the appearance of disorder but are actually governed by a set of deterministic laws. In applying this to a person’s experience of conversion, chaos theory would allow for seemingly random behavior within God’s system of grace, or as I like to say, unpredictability governed by grace.
We would do well to accept the variability and unpredictability of the activity of God in the world and leave the questions of who is in and who is out, who is moving towards or who is moving away, to God who governs it all with grace.
When we place conversion as the goal of our evangelism we run the risk of becoming judge and jury of a shallow faith that doesn’t resemble the kind of Kingdom living Jesus came to usher in.
38 comments
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Comment by Rick Cruse
1.47 pm on 21 Apr 2009
[Be careful you don't hit the wrong button whilst attempting to comment....]
Recently, I’ve had the privilege to watch three friends publicly acknowledge faith in Christ. Each of their journeys, though beginning from a different place, has one significant similarity. The following illustrates, according to them, the similarity:
Imagine you are traveling from one city to another, each in a different (depending on your country) province/county/state. Your journey begins in one province/county/state and ends in another. Unless you are watching very carefully (or someone else points out the boundary), you do not know when you’ve crossed “that line.” You only know your journey started in one and ended in the other. Salvation is often quite similar:you begin in some place with one view (or non-view) of Jesus and end by professing and embracing Him as Lord. You don’t know quite when or where you crossed the line, only that you have and have begun to live as a citizen of that new province/county/state.
Another key factor in this illustration is the fact that the journey may be quite direct or completely circuitous. It may even involve traveling through more than one province/county/state, some more than once.
Any analogy has limitations, but this one rings true for me.
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Comment by Elizabeth Chapin
8.04 pm on 21 Apr 2009
Rick, very nice analogy – I like it. This idea of a journey is very helpful as we think of what it means to become a follower of Christ.
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Comment by Randy Siever
3.50 pm on 21 Apr 2009
I LOVE this post. Very helpful, and a critical point of understanding my mission in Doable Evangelism. The conversion-centric model of evangelism we have all come to know and ignore in the evangelical world over the past 100 years or so is simply not working. And I believe it’s precisely because of this obsession with the conversion moment. The fact is, statistically, MOST people don’t have this “Paul on the road to Damascus experience” (although 14-24% do). This finding is the result of two studies done, one on your side of the pond in the 90’s and one done by Vision New England in ‘07.
You said,
“Receiving, partaking, responding, relating, believing, choosing – all are part of the process of being converted, of choosing to follow Christ.”
What do you think about calling conversion a process rather than an event? (This sounds less event oriented to me). I think conversion involves a series of events, mind you, but I’m wondering if any one event is more important than the other, and if in fact NO event in the process is any more important than any other (all being completely dependent upon the others for the process to come to fruition)?
I love the traveling metaphor above, by the way. Very helpful.
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Comment by Randy Siever
3.58 pm on 21 Apr 2009
Oh my…I just realized this article is written by Elizabeth Chapin (and not Jason Clark)! No wonder I’m feeling the connection…we are of the same tribe! Very nicely done, E.
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Comment by Elizabeth Chapin
8.08 pm on 21 Apr 2009
Randy, nice to know you are a reader of this Deep Church blog
I agree with the idea of conversion as a process rather than an event. In some of my readings of the early church, some report they had a three year process for people expressing interest in following Jesus. But then Christendom changed a lot of things.
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Comment by brett jordan
4.53 pm on 21 Apr 2009
Thanks for the article Elizabeth… as you point out, the NT provides us with a number of models of ‘conversion’, and along with the fact that ’saving faith’ pre-dates the birth of Jesus, means that any narrow definition of conversion will usually fail
what we do know is that conversion involves faith, and ultimately that this faith is not dependent on me, but on a faithful and loving God (phew!)
without wishing to bait any arminian readers, while there is lots of room for discussion, the Bible makes it clear that God is the prime-mover in the conversion process, with the Holy Spirit convicting us of our need of salvation, and providing us with assurance that we have been forgiven of our sins… as well as providing the resources to lead a holy life…
for me, that is the important bit… the scriptures make it very, very clear that God really, really wants us to be in a saving relationship with him… with Jesus as the ultimate example/facilitator of that… it is not a case of God standing there saying ‘prove you’re worthy’, it is more a case of God saying ‘what more do you want me to do?’
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Comment by Elizabeth Chapin
8.11 pm on 21 Apr 2009
Brett, your comment reminds me of a phrase my friend Todd Hunter uses a lot – cooperative friends of Jesus. Truly, God is the initiator and we can choose to cooperate with the work God is doing in our lives and the lives of others or not. How God’s part and our part work together is one of the great mysteries, but that they work together is something we see throughout the OT and NT. Thanks for the comment.
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Comment by Helen
3.47 am on 22 Apr 2009
Nice article, Elizabeth!
Yes, that was my whole comment
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Comment by Elizabeth Chapin
10.51 pm on 22 Apr 2009
Thanks, Helen.
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Comment by David Cooke
8.44 am on 22 Apr 2009
Thanks for this. The scriptures seems to indicate that we can ‘know’ that we are saved and have assurance (Romans 8). What I find often is that so many don’t have this. To find yourself in a place of assurance is a mark of your conversion not the means by which you got there, the prayer you prayed or how long or short a time it took. For the many who have no joy in assurance then we are around to encourage and help them find it. Anyway, that’s my thought for the day.
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Comment by Elizabeth Chapin
11.00 pm on 22 Apr 2009
Good point, David.
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Comment by mike williams
12.28 pm on 22 Apr 2009
I enjoyed these comments, and to some degree understand the context, although i personally can track back to a time and date where i made a decision. That decision was to ‘confess’ Jesus as Lord, ‘Confess’ my sin, and ‘Commit’ to following, obeying, serving Christ and his kingdom. I don’t find it to be that complex – its a simple choice to respond to God’s call. That is in itself a beautiful, life-changing moment, and i won’t forget it, ever. Many of my friends can also testify to moments of humility and the realisation of God, resulting in salvation. Most people in my experience do cross a line, even if their heart has been on more of a journey…
Romans 10.10 ‘For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.’
Decision making is not an enemy, although i can see how the evangelical church has made it sound more like a sales pitch etc. Regardless of how it has been used in the past – we cannot throw it out in search of another more ‘authentic’ model. It worked just fine for me.
I am ‘in’ a new kingdom, and ‘out’ of a corrupt one. I decided to make that switch. I have never been the same, and i give all glory to God for his part in drawing me, saving me, and including me.
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Comment by Elizabeth Chapin
11.06 pm on 22 Apr 2009
It’s interesting how we expect others to decide to follow Jesus in a similar fashion as we did. Surely, there are decisions made all along the journey. The problem I see is when we expect people to make a certain decision (you must pray this prayer) in a certain way (you must walk the aisle) in order to be saved.
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Comment by Allen
1.54 pm on 22 Apr 2009
Perhaps the question is who acts first in conversion, God or us? And is salvation up to our choosing or God’s? Ouch! That is the Arminian vs Reformed rub isn’t it? if our salvation is up to us then we’re of course in big trouble, because we are fickle and selfish. And if sanctification is a process by which the Holy Spirit is at work in us, shouldnt’ we expect as the gospels tell us that there will be periods where we seek our own way and not God’s? Does that mean we’ve fallen out of salvation or grace? Just some food for thought.
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Comment by Elizabeth Chapin
11.09 pm on 22 Apr 2009
Allen, these are some of the questions that seem to leave us wondering – and are the source of many controversies as you noted. Must we have an answer to how this mystery of salvation works?
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Comment by Jason
4.36 pm on 22 Apr 2009
Great post Elizabeth thank you.
Just to take one thought from your post, you said: ‘We would do well to accept the variability and unpredictability of the activity of God in the world and leave the questions of who is in and who is out, who is moving towards or who is moving away, to God who governs it all with grace.’
I love that notion that it is not our part to judge who is in and who is out.
Can I ask some questions to dig a little underneath some of the ideas here.
1) Do you believe Christianity warns us that some people are and in and some out, based on how they respond to Jesus/God
2) With regards to conversion, should Christians want others to convert, to find faith in Jesus and why?
Cheers, Jase
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Comment by Elizabeth Chapin
11.26 pm on 22 Apr 2009
Jase, thanks for digging.
I think Jesus warns that we will be surprised, as Randall notes below. Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 25 are passages that come to mind. What I find interesting, these passages focus more on doing than believing. Christianity of late has focused more on what we believe than what we do in regards to determining who is in and who is out. And it’s Christians who are making this determination, not leaving it up to Jesus. Paul also raised some concerns about people preaching Christ with insincere motives – even at this he merely rejoices that Christ is being preached and does not propose to be judge and jury deciding on their eternal fate.
Secondly, I do think Christians should want others to convert – to find faith in Jesus, but I think that looks a lot different than the “unChristian” faith many have converted to. (I’m referring to David Kinnaman’s book “unChristian” here.) I think conversion is a lot more complicated than a one time transaction of praying a prayer. I think it is more of a reorientation of life in accordance with the intention of God, or as Todd Hunter says, following Jesus as cooperative friends, living lives of consistent creative goodness, in the power of the Holy Spirit, for the sake of others. That’s what I invite others to join me in – not ascribing to a certain set of beliefs that have no effect on the normal rhythms and routines of their life. I am not saying that beliefs are unimportant, but rather they are not the end all, be all of a life of faith.
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Comment by Jason
6.54 am on 23 Apr 2009
Tnx
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Comment by Randall
9.12 pm on 22 Apr 2009
I’ve always believed that when we pass through this life into the next, everyone will be surprised by what they firmly believed to be true. Not some of us. All of us. God’s that big and we’re all that small and finite in our thinking.
Philippians 2:12-14 speaks to the importance of working out the free gift of salvation with others throughout our lives. Moreover, it shows the stimulus behind the mandate: maintaining an awe-struck respect of God (fear and trembling) showing we are so grateful for what he’s done for us that we’d never want to offend him—which motivates us to work out that salvation with the help of others.
So are we in or out? We’ll be surprised as to who walked through the pearly gates and who’s eternally separated from God. I’m a grace-based believer, but if there’s no works in a person’s walk from God’s perfect perspective, his or her salvation may not be in question.
I just know that salvation is a lot more than a simple acknowledgement of God at a point in time. Without a firm and lasting grip on one’s depravity, salvation isn’t something a person hungers to find or values once they discover it. If it’s taken for granted and is only kept as a fire insurance policy, it may not be worth more than the preverbal paper on which it is written.
This is one conversation that could go on and on and on, eh?
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Comment by Elizabeth Chapin
11.30 pm on 22 Apr 2009
Yes, Randall, we could go on and on and I am enjoying the conversation. Thanks for contributing. I agree with your idea that salvation is a lot more than what we have made it out to be. I’m looking forward to all the surprises that await me in the future, and ask for eyes to see some of those surprises even here and now.
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Comment by Elaine Hansen
12.36 am on 23 Apr 2009
Elizabeth – you are having too much fun. Great post and good conversation. (glad you posted the link on twitter.)
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Comment by Elizabeth Chapin
6.18 pm on 23 Apr 2009
Yes, this is fun. Thanks for reading and re-tweeting
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Comment by Paul
12.57 pm on 23 Apr 2009
Hi Elizabeth, great post. I’ve enjoyed the conversation and the idea of co-operating with Jesus in the whole salvation process.
Personally, which is about all i can speak for, I find the whole subject fascinating – after all I look at me and think there are some saved aspects of who I am and then there is a lot of room to follow Jesus and be transformed by him in vast swathes of the rest of me and my life.
I’ve also started noticing that a lot of other people have wonderful christian/Christ reflective sides of who they are who would not call themselves christians. That is a personal challenge to me but i’ve also begun enjoying encouraging those parts of them and reflecting to people the good that I see in them and trying to attribute that to the work of God within them.
I’m not very good at saying heh want to be a christian and i don’t think our society is very good with that question – faith being a private matter. But at least that way has allowed me to thank people for the good that they bring and how they feel about it, do they want to do that more, what stops them, what are their fears etc
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6.16 pm on 23 Apr 2009
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Comment by Elizabeth Chapin
6.21 pm on 23 Apr 2009
Paul, I hear what you are saying about faith being a private matter. I find it much easier to invite people to join me in serving the community as I follow Jesus than inviting them to church or to pray some prayer. Funny thing is, historically we expected people to pray the prayer or walk through the doors of the church before they can join us in serving. Perhaps we got it backwards.
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Comment by David
1.47 pm on 27 Apr 2009
Perhaps placing “making disciples”, rather than “conversion” as the goal of our evangelism helps to change the emphasis helpfully.
Also, I’ve found the Engel scale – with its emphasis on a process (journey) towards increasing maturity in Christ, with “conversion” as a step on that journey – very helpful.
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Comment by Elizabeth Chapin
4.51 pm on 27 Apr 2009
David, I’ve been thinking the same thing as making disciples – at least historically – involves a process over time. The Engel scale is interesting, but very linear and I’m not sure many people actually progress toward faith in such a linear fashion.
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Comment by Paul Scivier
5.29 pm on 27 Apr 2009
When I gradually became “a christian/follower of jesus/co-operator with Jesus, some years back, people-evangelicals would ask when? I liked the journey process example as it is one I heard nicky gumbel use about 10 years ago, and suits me. At the time I used to worry that if I couldnt give a precise date/time/venue I wasn’t “in”. I realise now I needn’t have worried, as asking that question is a bit of “legalism”.
As for who is saved/not saved, Jesus does say in scripture that many at the time of judgement will say “Lord,Lord….did we not prophesy in your name, drive out demons, and perform many miracles?Jesus says I will tell them I never knew you? It is those who do the Will of the Fatherwho will enter the Kingdom of Heaven”
So maybe we just need to follow him and by our way of life people will want to know more. We should help people feel they belong then they might actually believe!!
Blessings to all,
Paul
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Comment by Elizabeth Chapin
6.18 pm on 27 Apr 2009
Paul, interesting comment on the Matthew passage. Amazing how we have focused on conversion to a certain set of beliefs rather than focusing on following Jesus in a certain way. Both can tend toward legalism, but I think your idea of belonging before believing is a key to avoiding such legalism. Nice thoughts.
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Comment by Steve Hollinghurst
6.30 pm on 27 Apr 2009
Elizabeth
as an advocate of a ‘centred set approach’ i read this with interest.
what i think interesting about using chaos theory is that patterns are only observable after the event, i think that rings true with experience, it only tends ot be in looking back we see the picture, and the journey onward is still unseen. i also like the fact that the patterns of chaos are controlled by multiple interplays.
just however to also somment back on centred set, it is only ‘linear’ if we assume there are only two directions you can be heading, towards or away from, this assumes not a conversion line you cross as bounded set but a conversion moment when you turn through 180 degrees. i think actually we are always heading in other directions, few if any are heading 100% away from Christ few if any 100% towards, the process of conversion becomes a nudging of us over time so we get better on course with each nudge.
another consequence of this is that many people look to be heading roughly the same way, over time the divergance becomes more obvious. i think that rings true too
nnedless to say i don;t think we have to chose one model over the other, indeed perhaps a centred set model operates within a wider chaos system? actually even to the extent that we do not travel alone in our spiritual journey means that’s so…..which means church is a chaos system ;o)
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Comment by Elizabeth Chapin
7.12 pm on 27 Apr 2009
Steve, I really appreciate your thoughts here. With all our diagrams and such, it seems we sometimes over-simplify things or confuse things by trying to explain and describe how things work. I like the idea that we don’t have to choose one model over another, though I think I am ready to throw out the bounded set model and leave the idea of in and out in the realm of mystery.
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Comment by Steve Hollinghurst
9.58 pm on 27 Apr 2009
i’ll join you in throwing bounded set. truth is our models often unconsciously held, start to dictate our practice. the result of the bounded set approach, and it has predominated from Augustine onwards, is that we make coverts not disciples. i note the opposite in Matthew’s Great Commission. indeed i now think of evangelism as ‘discipleship of not yet Christians’, with no clear boudary of when that becomes ‘discipleship of christians’ in the end all is dsicpleship into the likeness of Christ which is the true realization of ourselves. with Ireneaus ‘the glory of God is a human being truly alive’
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Comment by JG
9.17 am on 28 Apr 2009
I think some of our problems over this issue are created because we think in terms of time as a straight line that we travel along.
My understanding of Christian theology is that God is outside time.
If we take on board the idea that God is outside time and that therefore his perspective is not limited by time, then this has a major impact on our pre occupation with “conversion” happening at a specific point in time and on the question whether you can then “lose your salvation” at some point after that time.
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Comment by Elizabeth Chapin
5.35 pm on 28 Apr 2009
I appreciate this reminder that God is outside time, but the key here is that it’s from God’s perspective that we need to be thinking about these things – not our limited point of view. We will never totally see things as God does, but God has given us the mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit to guide us in these things. May we be willing to have our vision expanded.
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Comment by mel
9.02 pm on 2 May 2009
Thanks Elizabeth for the discussion…
Salvation is the most important thing we have. Jesus name declares him- Jehovah is salvation. Without Him, we have no salvation, no hope. So, if we are moving in Him or reaching out to someone else to invite them into Him, Praise the Lord. Keeping ourselves close to Him is where he wants us to draw, draw close to Him and He will be close to us. I recall that James 5:19,20 gives us plenty reason to reach out. Avoiding strong delusions is also a reason to keep ourselves close to Him. Save yourselves he says in Acts 2, this surely means to work out our salvation, our relationship with Him. Once, I almost died in the Hospital, and the truth then was that I was ignoring God for some time, and the scare of dieing was real enough to give me that desire to turn around and push in the right direction because of God’s love that I knew existed even in that desperate time. Then last year I lost my sis to cancer and it really brought to light the need for getting right with Him, life is a vapour. The entrance to the kingdom has its narrow road, if we see it, take it, and feel safe in his church, growing and learning, then we can try to evangelize, the day comes when no man can work. Conversion is important when we make a decision to turn to Him, then we grown in grace and knowledge of our Lord J.C. and love the truth. Milk then meat of the Word. Add to our faith the fruits of the Spirit.
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Comment by Elizabeth Chapin
9.09 pm on 2 May 2009
Mel, thanks for joining the discussion.
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Comment by mel
9.27 pm on 2 May 2009
Jason- in response to your question,
1) Do you believe Christianity warns us that some people are and in and some out, based on how they respond to Jesus/God-
I recall the scripture in I John 4 …believe not every spirit, but try them…. And I am reminded of Demas who left the company of the apostle for “this present world” II Tim 4. So I think we can see the actions of ourselves and others speak. I think God covers it all, warning us to flee Satan, avoid evil, mark them that are contentious, by their fruits you will know them. Galatians 6 gives us hope to be gentle and respond to each others needs. Humble ourselves.
Regarding question 2)- Yes. The spiritual riches are only found in Christ Jesus. Eph. 2:7
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Comment by mel
10.02 pm on 2 May 2009
your welcome
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