Comments on: Who then can be saved?

By: mel

mel — Sat, 02 May 2009 21:02:06 +0000

your welcome

By: mel

mel — Sat, 02 May 2009 20:27:07 +0000

Jason- in response to your question,
1) Do you believe Christianity warns us that some people are and in and some out, based on how they respond to Jesus/God-

I recall the scripture in I John 4 …believe not every spirit, but try them…. And I am reminded of Demas who left the company of the apostle for “this present world” II Tim 4. So I think we can see the actions of ourselves and others speak. I think God covers it all, warning us to flee Satan, avoid evil, mark them that are contentious, by their fruits you will know them. Galatians 6 gives us hope to be gentle and respond to each others needs. Humble ourselves.
Regarding question 2)- Yes. The spiritual riches are only found in Christ Jesus. Eph. 2:7

By: Elizabeth Chapin

Elizabeth Chapin — Sat, 02 May 2009 20:09:30 +0000

Mel, thanks for joining the discussion.

By: mel

mel — Sat, 02 May 2009 20:02:37 +0000

Thanks Elizabeth for the discussion…
Salvation is the most important thing we have. Jesus name declares him- Jehovah is salvation. Without Him, we have no salvation, no hope. So, if we are moving in Him or reaching out to someone else to invite them into Him, Praise the Lord. Keeping ourselves close to Him is where he wants us to draw, draw close to Him and He will be close to us. I recall that James 5:19,20 gives us plenty reason to reach out. Avoiding strong delusions is also a reason to keep ourselves close to Him. Save yourselves he says in Acts 2, this surely means to work out our salvation, our relationship with Him. Once, I almost died in the Hospital, and the truth then was that I was ignoring God for some time, and the scare of dieing was real enough to give me that desire to turn around and push in the right direction because of God’s love that I knew existed even in that desperate time. Then last year I lost my sis to cancer and it really brought to light the need for getting right with Him, life is a vapour. The entrance to the kingdom has its narrow road, if we see it, take it, and feel safe in his church, growing and learning, then we can try to evangelize, the day comes when no man can work. Conversion is important when we make a decision to turn to Him, then we grown in grace and knowledge of our Lord J.C. and love the truth. Milk then meat of the Word. Add to our faith the fruits of the Spirit.

By: Elizabeth Chapin

Elizabeth Chapin — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 16:35:27 +0000

I appreciate this reminder that God is outside time, but the key here is that it’s from God’s perspective that we need to be thinking about these things – not our limited point of view. We will never totally see things as God does, but God has given us the mind of Christ and the Holy Spirit to guide us in these things. May we be willing to have our vision expanded.

By: JG

JG — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 08:17:55 +0000

I think some of our problems over this issue are created because we think in terms of time as a straight line that we travel along.

My understanding of Christian theology is that God is outside time.

If we take on board the idea that God is outside time and that therefore his perspective is not limited by time, then this has a major impact on our pre occupation with “conversion” happening at a specific point in time and on the question whether you can then “lose your salvation” at some point after that time.

By: Steve Hollinghurst

Steve Hollinghurst — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:58:19 +0000

i’ll join you in throwing bounded set. truth is our models often unconsciously held, start to dictate our practice. the result of the bounded set approach, and it has predominated from Augustine onwards, is that we make coverts not disciples. i note the opposite in Matthew’s Great Commission. indeed i now think of evangelism as ‘discipleship of not yet Christians’, with no clear boudary of when that becomes ‘discipleship of christians’ in the end all is dsicpleship into the likeness of Christ which is the true realization of ourselves. with Ireneaus ‘the glory of God is a human being truly alive’

By: Elizabeth Chapin

Elizabeth Chapin — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:12:34 +0000

Steve, I really appreciate your thoughts here. With all our diagrams and such, it seems we sometimes over-simplify things or confuse things by trying to explain and describe how things work. I like the idea that we don’t have to choose one model over another, though I think I am ready to throw out the bounded set model and leave the idea of in and out in the realm of mystery.

By: Steve Hollinghurst

Steve Hollinghurst — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:30:09 +0000

Elizabeth
as an advocate of a ‘centred set approach’ i read this with interest.

what i think interesting about using chaos theory is that patterns are only observable after the event, i think that rings true with experience, it only tends ot be in looking back we see the picture, and the journey onward is still unseen. i also like the fact that the patterns of chaos are controlled by multiple interplays.

just however to also somment back on centred set, it is only ‘linear’ if we assume there are only two directions you can be heading, towards or away from, this assumes not a conversion line you cross as bounded set but a conversion moment when you turn through 180 degrees. i think actually we are always heading in other directions, few if any are heading 100% away from Christ few if any 100% towards, the process of conversion becomes a nudging of us over time so we get better on course with each nudge.

another consequence of this is that many people look to be heading roughly the same way, over time the divergance becomes more obvious. i think that rings true too

nnedless to say i don;t think we have to chose one model over the other, indeed perhaps a centred set model operates within a wider chaos system? actually even to the extent that we do not travel alone in our spiritual journey means that’s so…..which means church is a chaos system ;o)

By: Elizabeth Chapin

Elizabeth Chapin — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:18:11 +0000

Paul, interesting comment on the Matthew passage. Amazing how we have focused on conversion to a certain set of beliefs rather than focusing on following Jesus in a certain way. Both can tend toward legalism, but I think your idea of belonging before believing is a key to avoiding such legalism. Nice thoughts.