Is there any ‘move’ left in the vineyard church movement?
31 Jan 2010
Last week I was at annual national leaders conference for my denomination, and I posted some thoughts about the benefits of being in a denomination.
I came to this time with other vineyard pastors with the stir in the blog world caused by Tony Jones, and his post on Lonnie Frisbee and the vineyard.
I’m not going to post/respond to what seemed like an indolent villification designed to attract comments (other than of course, that being a response in itself). Jason Coker provided one of the more thoughtful responses I’ve seen, and I would point you to his post here.
But the discussions did make me think about the ups and downs of the VIneyard movement, and my own 22 years involved with it, with my own ebb and flow.
So coming to our national conference with that in mind, it was timely to have Caleb Maskell, in a main conference session, a trained church historian (Princeton University) and vineyard church planter, reviewing our own history, and asking if there was ‘any move left in our movement’?
His review was encouragingly and necessarily critical, exploring some of what has given rise to the more painful transitions of the vineyard, and it was hopeful, in that it asked us to consider what would be required for us to be more than a renewal movement of the past, and located that within a traditioned and scriptured possibility. Caleb also exhorted us to undertake the necessary reflection and work, and thinking theologically, that such a possibility would take.
I was reminded again, and grateful at that point for how Todd Hunter and Vineyard, back in 1999, had stimulated that questioning process for me, that led to the theological exploration, and emerging church journey I have been on since then.
The new Society of Vineyard Scholars meeting this month, seems to offer a recapitulation of those earlier initiatives, but perhaps this time with our movement more ready to undertake the reflection that Caleb ha pointed us to.
Our national director, John Mumford (twitter link here), the night before Caleb spoke, had ably reminded us of 10 values/practices and distinctives of what made many of join and stay part of the Vineyard, that was exciting to hear again, as the re-telling of your most important values always are.
So with those values still in mind, then hearing Caleb’s challenge/call to our movement, my thoughts immediately turned to how those 10 distinctives might be run against some of the necessary theological questions of evangelicalism/emerging culture that the emerging church conversation has raised over the last 10 years?
So over the next couple of weeks, I’m going to do a few things here. I’m going to review Caleb’s analysis of vineyard decline, and possibilities in more detail, outline those 10 values John Mumford provided us with, and then run those 10 things against my best understanding of some of the theological questions that have arisen for evangelicalism in the past 10 years.
I hope that results in a re-articulation of those 10 values, and offers in some small way the beginnings of a response to Caleb’s challenge to us, of what might be need to move from renewal to being an ongoing movement.
Tagged: ecclesiology, Vineyard Churches
79 comments
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Comment by steven hamilton
1.37 pm on 31 Jan 2010
i’ve been a part of a few of these emerging conversations and have heard the ‘no move in the movement’ rublings for several years…i look forward to your thoughts on this important trajectory, especially from a new generation of leades like yourself…
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Comment by Jason Clark
3.26 pm on 31 Jan 2010
Tnx Steve, and I hope you jump in and offer your thoughts and reflections.
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Comment by caleb
3.48 pm on 31 Jan 2010
To give credit where credit is due, I first heard the phrase “no move in the movement” in a comment from Steve Hamilton on Pastoralia.
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Comment by Jason Clark
3.59 pm on 31 Jan 2010
You did reference that a friend had said that to you
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Comment by steven hamilton
5.45 pm on 31 Jan 2010
are they going to post the audio/video for thse sessions (especially caleb’s) anytime soon?
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Comment by Jason Clark
6.38 pm on 31 Jan 2010
Vineyard Uk usually have the talks on CD for sale, not sure if they are going to have downloads to purchase. The site for the conference is here: http://www.vineyardnlc.org/
If I see any news about that I’ll post here too.
Jase
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Comment by ASD
10.01 pm on 1 Feb 2010
I have a feeling that the main sessions, at least, were going to be available as podcasts on the new national Vineyard website: http://www.vineyardchurches.org.uk.
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Comment by Duncan Owen
2.20 pm on 2 Feb 2010
http://www.vineyardchurches.org.uk/podcasts.html
contains one of Caleb’s talks currently
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Comment by Simon Skinnre
4.00 pm on 31 Jan 2010
I’m interested in seeing a restatement of what the 10 values on vineyard are – and what needs to change ?
This is from a perspective of being 25 years in vineyard churches (OK the first one was Church of England but might as well have been Vineyard) and 13 years in 2 others.
Is societal change leading to denominational death, if so, what if anything can we do about it? Is the vineyard experience different from any other denomination ?
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Comment by Jason Clark
5.37 pm on 31 Jan 2010
That’s the kind of great question, we should put to Caleb
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Comment by treforw62@gmail.com
4.09 pm on 31 Jan 2010
was at the conference last week as well. after 5 years in ‘the vineyard’ i was finally starting to get it (and like it)… then everyone (well, David Ruis) began to raise doubts as to the movements long term viability. However i do welcome the debate as i have felt for a long time that the movement was in danger of remaining in its own little bubble, without much interaction with the broader church and not heeding the cultural shifts and currents. my analises was that this (movement) was a one trick pony and is likely to die, like many counter cultural (church)movements with its generation of founders. i agree that Caleb Maskells thoughtful introspection might help us think things through and give the ‘next generation’ (John Mumford – ‘how old do you have to be to be the next generation?’)
Looking forward to your thoughts too, Jason.
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Comment by Jason Clark
5.40 pm on 31 Jan 2010
Hi Trefor, great to hear from you. I think people took away from David Ruis, something that he might not have been saying…as in a few comments weren’t linked up with some of the other things he said. At least my take on him was a little different
I wish caleb had done a session on how renewal transitions into a movement from his understanding of Church history
Looking forward to interacting with you here some more on this. Jase
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Comment by Jason Coker
6.06 pm on 31 Jan 2010
Looking forward to this Jason.
I have to admit, the timing of all this is serendipitous for me. For more than a few years I found myself wondering if I had a future in the Vineyard, but lately I’ve experienced an unexpected sense of renewal in my own heart for the collegiality that comes from being part of the same tribe and a renewed affection for what the Vineyard represents. If I may be so bold as the lodge a prediction, I think this will be an important and fruitful decade for the Vineyard as we come out of a kind of long transition.
(BTW, thanks for the link)
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Comment by Jason Clark
6.31 pm on 31 Jan 2010
Hi Jason, thanks for dropping by, and for the post you wrote, it was very helpful.
You said, you ‘experienced an unexpected sense of renewal in my own heart’. A pregnant phrase that seems to express something similar that has been taking place in my own heart. Thanks for giving articulation to that.
Jase
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Comment by Orion
6.59 pm on 31 Jan 2010
I’m looking forward to reading this, Jason, and can echo what Jason Coker said – after a while of feeling ill-at-ease with the movement it seems like exciting and valuable things are happening, some important questions are being asked, and I’ve been reminded of all the reasons I fell in love with the vineyard. You used (in a previous post) the analogy of a successful long-term relationship, which makes good sense of things to me.
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Comment by Jason Clark
9.03 am on 1 Feb 2010
Hi Orion,
Maybe it is time for the ‘joy’ phase
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Comment by caleb
7.22 pm on 31 Jan 2010
Hi All:
If you’ll allow me just one quick but important amendment to Jason’s generous and thoughtful initial response to my talks at the UK NLC.
I would definitely not characterize my thought on the Vineyard as a narrative of decline, but rather one of growth and of change. This is very important to me because there is a large historical literature (by which i have been chastened) which shows the necessity of refusing all declension narratives in our history for Kingdom eschatological reasons. In my view, life in the secular/saeculum, which is to say, between the times, leaves no room for either original righteousness or manifest destiny in the narration of the life of a movement. What is available instead is a continual opportunity for service to and love of the world in the face of the catastrophe of humanness with the hope of the Kingdom in partial but sustaining view.
Thanks so much again to Jason for doing this. I am humbled to have provoked such reflection and I’ll watch the conversation with great interest.
Caleb
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Comment by steven hamilton
7.45 pm on 31 Jan 2010
hmm, good point, yet rather than a frame-of-reference vis-a-vis a declension narrative, the description can probably be like the first-blush of love, in which we will always look back on fondly, but we have to move forward and mature…i like orion’s reference to a successful long-term relationship…with all of the “becoming” aspects of change and adjustment to new seasons…
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Comment by Andrew Large
8.04 pm on 31 Jan 2010
As a UK Vineyard church planter and someone that has been part of the Vineyard church since the early ’90s I have witnessed the ups and downs and diversions that we as a movement have taken over the years. But in all of that I have been hugely encouraged by the fact that I have known that those leading the movement have been striving, as best they can, to follow the Spirit’s leading. The fact that in hindsight we may have been distracted from our calling as a churchplanting movement and have headed up some cul-de-sacs is simply evidence of the fact that we are human and, as Caleb says, only see the Kingdom in partial view. But nevertheless we have tried our best to see what the Father is doing in our respective nations and our generation and follow after Him as best we can.
The freedom, within the Vineyard in the UK, to take risks for the sake of the Kingdom; to be allowed to follow my heart and give expression to what I, as a churchplanter, sense to be the calling of God is a precious thing and something for which I am personally immensely grateful for.
I have never considered the Vineyard to be a one trick pony with a sell-by date but that said Caleb is right to point out our need to reflect theologically on our journey and consider where we now find ourselves. Caleb’s invitation to attend and his sessions at the UK Vineyard Leaders Conference were timely and are, for me, further evidence of the Sprit’s hand at work.
Jason, I look forward to your review/response to Caleb’s challenge and your reflections on our core distinctives.
This is a crucial conversation and I hope and pray that the work of the new Society of Vineyard Scholars will lead to serious reflection across the movement enabling us to rearticulate who we are – as Wimber said – “to take the best and go”.
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Comment by Jason Clark
9.05 am on 1 Feb 2010
Well said Andrew, thank you
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Comment by Stuart
3.36 pm on 2 Feb 2010
I think the church planting of the Vineyard is great. However, I would have thought that such an activity should be the product of all alive churches. Reproduction, as my biology lectures informed me, is a characteristic of life. The Vineyard may do it better than some and some may not do it at all, but should we label it as a distinctive or should we call it a strength? Should our identity be defined by the lack in others? On the other hand, there are not as many church groups that have been used to impact many nations and church streams in the realm of intimate worship and renewal. If we call the Vineyard primarily a church planting movement, we minimise the great gift God gave us in the ministry of John Wimber who is a father in the faith to many of diverse callings. Long may the church planting continue and flourish, but if we emphasise church planting ministry to the extent we neglect other functions in the body, we marginalise people who have different giftings and callings. When one part of the body suffers neglect the whole body suffers, whether it is immediately obvious or not. It is not good for long term health.
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Comment by steven hamilton
5.53 pm on 2 Feb 2010
i agree with your take stuart, and i think you have pointed out something really important – at least it is for me…except to me – and i may have insider knowledge on this as caleb is a friend and i have been a part of this conversation for a few years – to me when caleb mentions a ‘church movement’ this is distinct and larger than merely a ‘church-planting movement’; the wide variety of things to foster and facilitiate and empower people and faith communities to be involved with: from church-planting to renewal to worship and justice and compassion ministry to healing and signs and wonders…this is what i take caleb to mean in a larger ‘church movement’-kind-of-way…the very empowering heart of what you aptly named: “…to many of diverse callings.” a church movement is one that can gather and envision those of diverse callings…
in my own very limited opionion, if we limit it to merely identifying ourselves as a ‘church-planting movement’ this is flattening or at least is missing a greater perspective, your perspective that ‘church movements’ do indeed show their health via church-planting.
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Comment by Jason Clark
5.57 pm on 2 Feb 2010
When I hear Caleb talk about moving from renewal to being a movement, I hear the need to move from renewing church to and understanding of being churches. In that regard we’ve planted churches but need to understand ecclesiology beyond renewal to become the movement Caleb brought to our attention.
Some questions I’d like to ask Caleb and some more follow talks he needs to give
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Comment by Stuart
10.39 am on 17 Feb 2010
I am passionate about the Ecclesia that Jesus declared He was going to build. As far as I am concerned the job is far from finished and involves qualitative as much as quantitative growth. What I think God gave us in John Wimber was a significant step forward in understanding and expressing what He has in mind. I am very grateful for what we have now but I am always looking for the next step. An intrinsic part of renewal for me is the opportunity and ability to move forward in the building process which involves understanding more of His blueprint for the Ecclesia – a deepening revelation and understanding of the scriptures accompanied with changes in our world view and paradigms that allow us and empower us to grow into the Ecclesia Jesus wants. Some of this can happen more gradually in smaller steps (and I think that has been happening and is continuing) but by the nature of paradigm change, some can only take place in bigger steps. Are we prepared for such a step if that is what Jesus has for us? Attempting these steps involves more risks of getting it wrong, hurting and disappointing people, and of being rejected. Does God sometimes call a movement not to engage in such a big step and get on with ‘perfecting’ what it has with smaller steps, while other people make the attempt at the bigger step that yields good things that can later be adopted when the advances become more refined? What implications would this have for ‘renewalists’ within a movement that is not called or ready to make such a big step? How easy will it be for such a movement to accept that a larger part of the renewal process that they need will now be coming from outside their own ranks and will challenge their thinking? Will the wineskin be flexible enough to take new wine?
I am encouraged to hear an interview of Bill Johnson by Elijah Stephens (a Vineyard leader from the US i believe) http://www.ibethelmedia1.org/billjohnsonministries.com/download_message.php?file=Interview_by_Elijah_Stephens.mp3 I think Bill has much wisdom and insight for us.
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Comment by Gwen
3.53 pm on 8 Feb 2010
Stuart: “if we emphasise church planting ministry to the extent we neglect other functions in the body, we marginalise people who have different giftings and callings. When one part of the body suffers neglect the whole body suffers, whether it is immediately obvious or not. It is not good for long term health.”
I think, in saying this, Stuart has summed up the experience of myself & many friends who were part of the Vineyard for a time but, with great sadness, had to eventually leave as we were not church planters & there was no room for us.
I certainly hope that, as the Vineyard movement looks for a fresh way forward, as Jason says to “an understanding of being churches” – there will be room for all of the giftings given by God, including pastoral care.
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Comment by Jamie Watters
5.29 pm on 8 Feb 2010
Hi Gwen can you expand on “myself & many friends who were part of the Vineyard for a time but, with great sadness, had to eventually leave as we were not church planters & there was no room for us” I may have picked you up wrongly did you mean “a” Vineyard or “the” Vineyard.
If it is “THE” Vineyard then this is certainly not the Vineyard movement that I’m part of in the UK. It does sound like An unfair swipe (all be it a born, no doubt out of pain) at me and the family that I’m part of. I find it hard to believe that there was no room for you to serve in the Vineyard. Although Church planting is an emphasise of our movement it is one of many, and in itself does not completely define us, as a sum total of what God has called us to be and do. When you look at the engagement we have with our local communities the marginalised the needy as well as those who have plenty, when you look at the way some of our churches engage with mission home and abroad. When you look at the way we engage with schools, colleges, universities. When you look at the way we engage with the arts, media, including radio, television and the movie industry. When you look at the way we have unity with other streams of the Christian family, when you look at the way we take the Kingdom out on to the streets, when you look at the way’s we are trying to build disciples and to be honest I could go on and on! I really have to scratch my head to understand how you can possibly say there was no room for us. Or is there something I’m missing. As a family of Churches we will always have a church planting emphasis, didn’t we have a healing emphasis, a prophetic emphasis, an evangelism emphasis an engaging with the post modern emphasis? Aren’t these still live focuses. Or are you referring to a local situation as opposed to the “Vineyard movement which this blog is about” and even then there are always two sides to every story. As with any response to blog’s of this nature it is important to realise that when you say THE “Vineyard” you are talking about one hundred communities who bare that name in the UK and Ireland. Globally that is an even greater number and it is unhelpful when such broad brush strokes are applied over individual experiences to a whole movement who you have not met on an individual basis or aware of what they do.
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Comment by Gwen
9.47 pm on 8 Feb 2010
Hi Jamie,
My heart always sinks to my boots when I read a comment such as you’ve written. I am so tired of trying to justify my comments to those who are defensive & unwilling to hear an opinion which differs from their own so I am not going to. Nor will I expand on my comment about the experiences of myself and a great number of people I have known in THE Vineyard over the years, both here in the UK & in North America. Our experiences are valid & far from unique but I am not here to sling mud or name names or churches.
Suffice it to say that in your list of activities listed that your particular Vineyard is involved in, there is the notable absence of pastoral care. I still love the Vineyard but have had to accept not only my own fallen humanity but that of others in the “family” – no matter whether they lead the biggest Vineyard or direct cars in the parking lot – we are all fallible & make mistakes.
For me, the true mark of spiritual maturity is when someone can admit to their mistakes, take responsibility & offer an apology when they are wrong, showing true compassion & humility. If I don’t see those kinds of hallmarks in a person/leader, I frankly don’t care what great church activities they’re involved in or how great their theological knowledge.
That is as true now as it was in my Vineyard days. You may think this is off the subject but for me – it is the subject.
I also think that we know each other- if you are the Jamie married to Linda in Glasgow. If so, we have had good times in your house in past years. I’m delighted to hear that things are going well in Scotland – someone else here has commented that “the Scottish & Irish Vineyards are thriving and growing, they are outward focussed, not only in social action but also equally balanced with taking risks supernaturally. I think that is the key. There are historically many religious divisions in both nations, but the Vineyard seems to be breaking through.”
How wonderful. But that does not negate things which have taken place south of the border. One can’t judge the whole Vineyard movement soley on what happens in the Celtic areas of the UK. You would undoubtedly experience culture shock if you were to live in England as part of a Vineyrad church & I do think quite a lot of your outlook is culture-based (I say this as a fellow Scot who has lived in England for a long time).
So, stop scratching your head & just accept that we all have different, equally valid, experiences of the same worldwide movement/family of churches.
Best, Gwen
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Comment by Stuart
11.14 pm on 8 Feb 2010
All the Vineyard leaders I know here, down south, are men and women of integrity, but who, like myself, have blind spots, which is why honest discussion can be very healthy in the long run.
Comment by Jason Clark
11.28 am on 9 Feb 2010
I’ll jump in with Jamie and Gwen if I may.
If the Vineyard is going to review itself critically, that means being open to questions. Jamie in Gwen’s comment I hear a real concern/issue, that a focus on church planting, can lead to other people feeling left out in terms of involvement in a church. I know lots of people who felt that.
There may not be anyway around that, a community can focus on social justice and not other aspects like creative arts, and people inclined and gifted at art may feel left out.
And Gwen, I think Jamie was trying to ask if that was your experience of one Vineyard Church or them all?
The vineyard is flawed, because it is full of people like us, as is any form of church that people leave vineyard for. And church movements need to ask hard questions of what they are doing and take responsibility, and those finding it difficult need to ask what they have contributed to the problem too.
Maybe that way we can move forward together?
Comment by Jamie Watters
12.30 pm on 9 Feb 2010
Hi Jason fair comment.
Hi Gwen
I’m sorry if I have touched a raw nerve, it was never my intention. I was only trying to establish whether you were talking about your experience with a church or were you, as I was reading it judging the whole movement by your comment? Your response has clearly answered that question for me, thank you. I do respect your opinion and that of others even though I may not agree with them. I think it is great that we can have these debates with respect for each other and still agree to disagree. My heart to sinks when people make broad comments labeling everybody the same. When in my opinion it’s not true. I’m sure you will equally respect my opinion and the opinion of many others like myself in the UK and the leaders and members of Church’s that I personally know in North America, South Africa, Germany, and the Nordic countries.
Your comment “Suffice it to say that in your list of activities listed that your particular Vineyard is involved in, there is the notable absence of pastoral care.” There is no absence of pastoral care in this list!! Let me explain. In every ministry that I have listed, they have two components to it. One it is outward focused and secondly it is very pastoral in its set up and structure both for the team offering them pastoral care and support in what they do and also for the people we are reaching out to. We have found that the most beneficial way to work out loving God and Loving people. We have created environments within environments that compliment and enhance the effect of that ministry. So don’t let your heart sink to your boots clarification clears up confusion and helps eradicate misinformation with facts. Gwen thank you for your response and if you are ever in Scotland please give us a call. There are many hard questions the Vineyard needs to ask its self as we go forward and I think that you have raised some valid points. I wish you well Jamie
Comment by steven hamilton
4.15 pm on 9 Feb 2010
gwen –
i agree with you.
as someone on a pastoral and leadership team at a vineyard currnetly, i am in touch with your emotion. i have definitely felt the same way…so no apologies necessary; there has been a focus in the past on church-planters and pastors to the neglect of other areas; still i currently remain hopeful that the Vineyard – yes the larger Vineyard across the world – can begin to include and empower not just church-planters and not just pastor the pastors so-to-speak and not just resource those with pastoral and teaching ministry giftings, but in moving to embrace a larger ‘church movement’ ethos, we include those with apostolic, prophetic, evangelistic ministry giftings as well. (when reading these giftings my current thinking is a lot like alan hirsch and his definitions of these ministry giftings)
i think your point is great, because in focusing on church-planters (ala really those would-be senior pastors), we have done a lot of good, but severely lacked in the supporting team/appartus side, which includes pastoral care on local, area and regional levels. as a result, local faith communities suffer as pastoral care leaves these local contexts, and then these pastors are getting burnt (at least in the american context) and in terrible need to soul care/pastoral care.
i’m all for a call to embracing the more holistic concept and practice of church…
peace
Comment by Stuart
3.23 pm on 10 Feb 2010
Jason – I think an important question is what constitutes a church. What are the essential functions in church that we cannot (or should not) do without. There will be different emphasises and visions but there must be an essential core. In that respect your example of creative arts is a bit different to Gwen’s example of pastoral ministry. I value Steven Hamilton’s comments on the Ephesians 4 ministries, a subject that I have rarely heard talked about in quite a few years in the UK Vineyard. Thank you Steven. I still, thought, find it difficult to relate the ‘church-planters (ala really those would-be senior pastors)’ to how new churches were started in Acts and descriptions of functions in Ephesians 4 etc. If we start new churches in a different way to what we see in Acts (if indeed that is what is happening) will we end up with a different ‘type’ of church and differences in functioning within it?
Your other example Jason, i.e. social justice, is an interesting one – whether we include it as an essential will probably depend on our understanding of what the outward function of church is, and takes us back to Jesus’ declaration that He would build His ‘ecclesia’, a name that, at that time, had no religious meaning as far as I know, only a Greek and Roman one relating to influencing society.
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Comment by Sandy
8.48 pm on 31 Jan 2010
I fell in love with the Vineyard 10 years ago and left 3 years ago after being in leadership.
When in ministry I reached out to the marginalized in our church and community, I cried out for help. Someone please come with me into the darkness and love the world as Jesus did and does.
No response, no volunteers just my wife and I. We put on an event to reach out to the community
and it was boycotted by the majority of the church because we had secular bands. 20 families left the church over it and we were ostracized till we left.
Jesus and Paul were about relationships about leading people to a better way of living and the creator. Vineyard core values reflect this, the people don’t. If leadership can’t teach and show their churches how this is done, if they don’t have any ministries that daily reach people that don’t know Him, if all they do is teach and do church then they are doomed.
If most churches cannot engage their communities with his love, not what they think his judgement would be, then they will continue to decline. While we were at this Vineyard it planted 4 churches and not one is still open. Is this the future of Vineyard? If God is love, His people should reflect this.
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Comment by Winn
9.07 am on 1 Feb 2010
Sandy,
I am sorry to hear of your experience in the Vineyard. I trust that forgiveness has followed that hurt.
What concerns me, as one who has been in the Vineyard since before it was a Vineyard, is that you paint a whole movement of folks trying to follow God through the lens of one very personal experience. Your “they” words seem to point to this conclusion. Even the illustration of planting 4 churches and all dying ends with: “Is this the future of the Vineyard.” One might say, at least if your slant of the story is factual, that it might be the end of that local Vineyard.
Surely, your side of your story is important. One has to wonder what the other side of the story sounds like.
Believe me, I know the pain in being hurt by a Vineyard church. I have experienced it personally, but should that cause any of us in relationship to view the whole family in light of one dysfunctional part of the family. Personally, I don’t think so.
May your desire to reach “out to the marginalized” be materialized in your ongoing ministry.
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Comment by Jason Clark
9.08 am on 1 Feb 2010
Hi Sandy,
Sorry to hear of the tough time and experience you had. No comfort for you, but for many of us VIneyard churches have been about the very thing you are looking for and experience of that.
I guess nothing has changed since the early church, some churches pursue Jesus more than others.
I’m just grateful the VIneyard is bigger than just one church. And as per the post above, some direct and critical questions of the movement are taking place, which is a good start, imho.
Great to hear from you, Jason
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Comment by mervyn trigg
8.28 am on 1 Feb 2010
Well as a relative newcomer to the vineyard I find the attitude of the leadership and the call to minister to the marginalised so refreshing ,after being in a mainstream denomination.And to be able to share my Fransiscan vocation with others in the Vineyard and to be thoughtfully questioned on it is very encouraging, And perhaps if we had gotten a call to look at ourselves in the mainstrean church and see what direction we were headed I would have stayed! So to hear that people are questioming the direction and more importantly Praying, gives me hope for the future !
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Comment by Jason Clark
9.10 am on 1 Feb 2010
Hi Mervyn, great to hear from you
You said, you are able to ’share my Fransiscan vocation with others in the Vineyard’. I’d like to hear more about that too.
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Comment by steven hamilton
12.33 pm on 1 Feb 2010
mervyn –
as one with some neo-monastic, i’d love to not only hear more but experience some of the Franciscan vocation with others in the Vineyard…
actually, i totally agree with you, the Vineyard has – for the most part – been open to differing expressions; i’ve been in Vineyards which were much like my old Baptist experience, some where the vibe was much more ‘Pentecostal, and some that are even Catholic-like…it’s one of the things that i love!!!
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Comment by Jason Clark
12.38 pm on 1 Feb 2010
I think people overlay memories of healing conferences on vineyard churches and assume that’s all we are about, and miss the diverse planting experiences we have all been through.
Just as we are remiss if assume all baptist churches are homogeneous
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Comment by Steve Burnhope
9.29 am on 1 Feb 2010
Well, as a potential ‘newbie’ in Vineyard, after a journey that started three decades ago in the early house church movement, moved through an ill-fated pentecostal experience and then a gently charismatic (timewarped) Baptist Church, I am encouraged to see such positive, self-critical reflection. I heard very good reports about Caleb’s contribution to the conference and look forward to hearing it (if the CD or download is available).
I guess one aspect of this reflection is to be faithful to the Vineyard tradition (albeit, a recent one) whilst at the same time not being a product of the past. It’s easy for the second and subsequent generations to simply become ‘fidei defensor’ (defender of the faith) – i.e. seeing the mission as to defend and promote the past revelation of the first generation.
The questions of every age move on, even though the questions and answers of the past ages continue to inform our journey.
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Comment by Jason Clark
9.51 am on 1 Feb 2010
With jonathan edwards admonishment of the task of each generation to bring ‘new light’ to perennial concerns, I wonder if we have several methods that we need to engage in:
1. Retrieval of Vineyard tradition and heritage, critically
2. Retrieval and resourcement from Evangelicalism itself, a rich resources
3. The same from the great tradition of the church
4. The creation of new traditions from a fresh work of the spirit
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Comment by Duncan Owen
12.06 pm on 1 Feb 2010
What a wonderful conversation so far highlighting the bredth of the vineyard and the joy that we can all find through the grace of pain. Thanks again to Caleb who brought us the value of learning together (sounds like a kingdom idea) in such a humble way.
Duncan
(vineyard for 16 yrs now)
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Comment by lizzy edwards
12.37 pm on 1 Feb 2010
Hi Jason,
I’m afraid that a lot of the academic discussion goes over my head…!
I who joined the Vineyard back in 1989, and followed a lot of the journey through 2 church plants, and also stint in an Angligan church that took on many Vineyard values through the New Wine network.
For the last 18 mths I been connected to a small independent church, and am planting a ‘fresh expression’ of sorts, as people are coming to Christ and need something different. I was at the Vineyard leaders conf. in 2000, and was very inspired by Todd Hunter, and took encouragement from him for the way forward.
The main thing that I miss ‘desperately’ from my time in Vineyard is the INTIMACY IN WORSHIP. A value that came from the
very beginning. Is that still one of John Mumford’s values?
I have seen the massive impact that John Wimber and the Vineyard movement made on the UK church as a whole, but that value, and the ‘come as you are’ are values that I cherish, and although there are many worthy worship songs from other sources, there is something unique about the annointing for intimacy on Vineyard stuff.
Lizzy
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Comment by lizzy edwards
12.38 pm on 1 Feb 2010
Hi Jason,
I’m afraid that a lot of the academic discussion goes over my head…!
I joined the Vineyard back in 1989, and followed a lot of the journey through 2 church plants, and also stint in an Angligan church that took on many Vineyard values through the New Wine network.
For the last 18 mths I been connected to a small independent church, and am planting a ‘fresh expression’ of sorts, as people are coming to Christ and need something different. I was at the Vineyard leaders conf. in 2000, and was very inspired by Todd Hunter, and took encouragement from him for the way forward.
The main thing that I miss ‘desperately’ from my time in Vineyard is the INTIMACY IN WORSHIP. A value that came from the
very beginning. Is that still one of John Mumford’s values?
I have seen the massive impact that John Wimber and the Vineyard movement made on the UK church as a whole, but that value, and the ‘come as you are’ are values that I cherish, and although there are many worthy worship songs from other sources, there is something unique about the annointing for intimacy on Vineyard stuff.
Lizzy
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Comment by Jonny
2.02 pm on 1 Feb 2010
Thanks for the post Jason (and to everyone for these comments). I was gutted I couldn’t make NLC, but I’ve enjoyed hearing feedback from friends who did go. I shall look forward to listing to the recordings of the talks and the reflections you post here. Cheers! Jonny
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Comment by Jamie Watters
6.41 pm on 1 Feb 2010
What a wonderful discussion, I first discovered the Vineyard one year after I came to faith in 1987 and was part of the fifth Vineyard in the UK. I do find it somewhat disappointing when I hear of people jumping from denomination to denomination throughout the transition and growth of the movement. I’m sure people will sight many valid reasons for this but let’s be honest are they really valid from a Kingdom perspective?
I honestly find it hard to get my train of thought to align with what I hear, for me family is family; you don’t divorce your family, you work it through you embrace the lows with the highs the changes and the distractions. Weren’t we the ones who were meant to be different? Perhaps being Scottish I come from a different understanding of tribe and clan that is culturally still very dear to us. So forgive me if my culture taints my perspective. When I hear questions like is there any “move left in the movement”, and then hear of people leaving or loosing heart I wonder is this just symptomatic of our non committal culture or is it merely reflective of my generation (1960 child) and has it really seeped into Church leaders as well, (I honestly have never heard the phrase before). This raises the question in my mind who effects what (culture or Christians) and how does that align with following Jesus.
I agree with Caleb our journey as a movement is positive and is heading forward this is such an early phase of growth that we are in, it would be crazy to think we are a one horse trick and “I BELIEVE” it certainly isn’t reflective of our very, very brief history.
I can’t imagine any movement not going through ups and downs as they grow, and frankly I welcome it! I think it’s healthy!!( if you understand growth and development) even if it is somewhat painful at times. The real crime is when we make the same mistakes over and over again.
We have some amazing leaders all over our movement who are navigating us forward. Personally I find it so encouraging, men and women with true grit who take risks and are often the unsung heroes of the faith. I applaud Jason’s faithful tenacity in pressing on through opposition to his journey which I have witnessed firsthand. But you know what! he “maned up” stood his ground and pressed forward and we are all far more richer for it.
My experience in the eighteen years that I have been part of Vineyard is we win the lost, make disciples, minister to the poor, heal the sick prefer others, give generously, bring hope to the hopeless, we are impacting our communities, we are missional home and abroad and continue to bless the wider church through Healing on the streets and the way we are engaging with the poor. We have never stopped doing this. In fact it’s growing. I truly believe what we have experienced in the last twenty something years is only beginning. I thank God for the privilege of being part of this quirky wart’s an all family called the Vineyard.
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Comment by Jim Hale
6.50 pm on 1 Feb 2010
One can only pray that the UK Vineyard can avoid what has become of the Vineyard in the US. I frequently visit the city where I once heard Todd Hunter preach in the early 90’s. The church now has a husband-wife pastor team that would make TBN proud. Very sad.
It’s not surprising that Hunter is now an Anglican!
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Comment by Winn
9.06 pm on 1 Feb 2010
Jim,
Could you clarify what you mean by “The church now has a husband-wife pastor team that would make TBN proud.” Is it like TBN in its presentation? or, are you referring to having a husband-wife team as pastors in some derogatory way.
I would like to know what you mean by “what has become of the Vineyard in the US” since I am a part of that family.
BTW: It’s a large assumption to assume that Todd has become an Anglican just because of the Vineyard?
In respect to what Jason has said about being faithful to a family, there surely is room for someone to hear God call them to a different family? The Vineyard was created by such moves.
Thanks,
Winn
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Comment by Jim Hale
12.13 am on 2 Feb 2010
The last service I attended was on Christmas Eve, when the wife of the pastor team announced that we were celebrating “God abandoning his divinity to walk with man on earth!”
That was just one of several revelations from the pulpit. I walked out before she finished. The whole scene was just bad, and worst of all, the music was awful too.
I think the overall feeling in the States is that the Vineyard has been on the wane for the past decade. I meet alot of former Vineyard folks at the ACTS 29 church plants in our region, where the conventional wisdom is that, since Todd Hunter left, the anti-intellectualism and anti-historicism of Charismania in general had overwhelmed the Vineyards planters from the 80’s and 90’s.
In my hometown, the Vineyard church is barely keeping a pulse, down now to less than 50 attenders on Sunday. The sad truth is that the Vineyard is not even talked about much anymore in the US.
The African-Anglican Churches are popping up all over the place. My sense is that Todd Hunter is embracing the tradition and intellectual heft of Anglicanism after realizing that the US Vineyard Church was in a sharp decline, both theologically and numerically.
Between the prosperity gospel and the mega-healing revivals (see IHOP), it really is a circus over here.
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Comment by Jason Coker
12.56 am on 2 Feb 2010
Wow Jim, bitter much?
You’ve painted over 1500 churches with a pretty broad-sweeping brush. Do you really have an objective knowledge of the dominant flavor of the Vineyard in the U.S? Personally, my experience is not the same as yours and I’ve been in the Vineyard for 13 years, in three different regions. Based on that I’d say you’re pretty far off base.
Could it possibly be that you’re hanging out around Acts 29 churches? The neo-Reformed tend to be given to apocalyptic leaps of condemnation, so if that (and one local “TBN” Vineyard church) is the lens through which you’re viewing the movement, then I suppose I understand your perspective completely.
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Comment by Winn
12.38 am on 2 Feb 2010
Jim,
Thanks for your response. Why not ask Todd if that is the case. Go to his site: http://www.toddhunter.org/ and click on Contact Us and ask him. Then you want have to “sense” anymore. You may have an answer straight from the “horses mouth” so to speak.
Winn
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Comment by Jim Hale
1.18 am on 2 Feb 2010
Of course Mr. Hunter is too much of a gentleman to say he left the Vineyard because of it’s shallowness in the US, but his interview in CT does give one a “sense” of what he appreciates in the liturgy, and by extension, what is lacking in the
make it up as you go world of the charismatic church in the US.
excerpt:
“Christianity is for the sake of others. And praying the prayers of the people pickles you in the otherly orientation, which is fundamental to being the people of God.”
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Comment by Winn
2.39 am on 2 Feb 2010
Thanks Jim,
So, it appears that you think that Todd left the Vineyard because of its shallowness. One wonders if he left AlphaUSA because of its shallowness as well.
But, you are welcome to your opinion as you have stated it, I just don’t agree with it.
Winn
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Comment by Jim Hale
2.52 am on 2 Feb 2010
Winn -
“Shallow?” That would almost be too kind!
It is telling that you seem to be more worried about my thoughts regarding why Hunter left, than a Vineyard pastor at one of the few remaining large churches, teaching heresy. Admittedly, she probably didn’t even realize what she was saying (about God abandoning his divinity to come to earth), but that is also a sad commentary on the state of affairs in the Vineyard USA. This is a woman with zero theological training, calling herself a pastor, simply because she’s married to a pastor who does happen to have a divinity degree.
And to make matters worse, no one in the congregation seemed bothered by her invoking an ancient heretical teaching.
This was the same church where I once heard Mr. Hunter preach theologically rich sermons. It’s no wonder he, or anyone else who cares about worshiping in spirit and truth, would head for the hills.
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Comment by Winn
3.38 am on 2 Feb 2010
Jim,
Don’t take my silence on one issue to mean consent. That is not “telling” about anything. One really can’t “tell” anything from another’s silence, except what they want to make out of it, and usually what is thought is not anywhere close to correct. It would not be right for me to make and offer an opinion on what the woman you referred to said, solely based on your report, without having heard her say it.
I was simply interested in the conclusions that you have drawn about Todd and wondered how much research, other than the CT magazine article that you read, you had done to confirm your beliefs. I’ve know Todd for some 30 years now and I spent a fair amount of time with him last year (2009) and I think I have a “sense” for why he has moved to work with AMiA. My suggestion to you to find facts to support your conclusions seems to be a fair request. But, you seem to be content with what you think to be the truth of the matter and I am content to let you be content.
Winn
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Comment by steven hamilton
12.54 pm on 2 Feb 2010
here is the link for Caleb’s talk and the other talks at the conference):
http://www.vineyardchurches.org.uk/podcasts.html
i have to say, caleb spoke powerfully and insightfully, bringing some real wisdom in a winsome way that recognizes the significance of so many things in so many ways (can you tell i’m an historian admiring my fellow historian??)
peace
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Comment by Jim Hale
3.39 pm on 2 Feb 2010
Okay, things are getting a bit angry here, so let me repeat that what I see happening in the US Vineyard is SAD! The men in my age group (48) I see at ACTs 29 churches who spent some time in Vineyard churches all speak of their early days in the movement with fondness.
Granted, my experience on the East Coast (three cities) does not tell the entire story, but I don’t meet anyone familiar with the Vineyard nationwide who doesn’t agree that it is in a significant free-fall. It’s as if the Vineyard in the US does not know what it is: Emergent, Charismatic/Conservative, Left-leaning Charismatic, broadly Evangelical?
Old Vineyard guys are leaving in droves, and I meet alot of them in Acts 29 churches, led by young pastors who are influenced by serious Bible scholars such as Sam Storms and John Piper. It’s time the Vineyard leadership stopped blaming Neo-Calvinists for their problems and recognize that you’ve got some serious problems, as pastor Charlie Wear bluntly states:
“…if you want to examine the birth and then decline of a movement, the vineyard is a great example. a little over 25 years in and it is clearly in decline. and the decline absolutely began when the leadership was passed to the next generation of leaders.”
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Comment by Jason Coker
5.18 pm on 2 Feb 2010
Not blaming Jim, I’m only pointing out that your perspective might be limited and skewed. I appreciate you’re now willing to at least admit your experience is, in fact, limited. It might be helpful to represent that in your tone rather than make ill-informed blanket statements.
What interesting is that conversation wouldn’t be happening at all if people here didn’t openly recognize decline in the movement, so your latest insistence that we embrace that fact seems odd to say the least. Combined with your vitriol, it comes across like there’s more to it than that – like you have some sort of personal axe to grind – which doesn’t advance the discussion at all.
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Comment by Jason Clark
7.01 am on 3 Feb 2010
Hi Jim, great to hear from you. I guess it’s always difficult to see something tragic in church life that moves us and then distill that into a comment that expresses that adequately, without a full context for everyone reading.
I hear you reflecting that given who Todd is and what he teaches, your concern about what has replaced that within one vineyard context.
And I hear you raising an honest question, that the vineyard in it’s influence is not what it was (whether it needs to be is another topic
, and that there does seem to have been an identity crises within our movement, as to what we are, holiness, renewal, church planting, etc etc.
I also hear some of the comments in response trying to frame how the Vineyard is more than the sum of some of it’s stranger churches, has some within it now asking hard questions, and trying to be hopeful about what it’s future might be, which has to be a better response than ‘running for the hills’, as you put it.
Jase
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Comment by Sandy
6.16 pm on 2 Feb 2010
OK why so much anger? I have had bad experiences at Acts 29 churches as well as Vineyard.
Im’ a musician and I play a lot of different churches, temples as well as bars. Some of my secular friends treat me better than the church people. I don’t see that many churches trying to make relationships with the ones that don’t fit their club. The Act 29 church said the apostles creed at the end of each service. I thought it a bit cult like. Wasn’t Jesus for the ones that did not know His father. When the intellectuals base the church, on their version of the eschatology, then the simple folk, the artist and the marginalized get lost in the shuffle. We need to help all churches turn from the blame game and get alined with the kingdom. The only way to make His kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven is to tear down the walls of our churches and reach out to our communities with his love. Our compassion, humility and openness to love all puts us believers in the army of the kingdom. Our kingdom weapons are our hearts and the compassion He put there. To me that is freedom in Christ and a life of worship.
If all churches don’t start this unconditional love of humanity, then what is their future.
The youth are running from the church in droves and they aren’t looking back. We can’t just blame the world, the church must take some.
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Pingback by Brian McLaren: Denominations do invaluable things at Deep Church
6.52 am on 3 Feb 2010
[...] the post and discussion about what the future of the Vineyard Church movement might hold, these resources from Faith & [...]
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Comment by Jason Clark
6.54 am on 3 Feb 2010
For those of you following the comments in this post on the future of the vineyard, these videos/articles on the future of denominations might be of interest.
With the post and discussion about what the future of the Vineyard Church movement might hold, these resources from Faith & Leadership on the future of denominations might prove useful.
In particular I found Brian McLaren’s contribution both supportive of what denominations can do, as well visionary with regards to challenges, changes and possibilities.
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Comment by Graeme Campbell
11.34 am on 3 Feb 2010
Here’s my take. I’ve been around the Vineyard in various parts of the UK since about 1990. I’ve worked on staff in one church, led worship in others and unsuccessfully tried to plant twice (hey, you gotta give it a go). The early days, when I used to visit SW London Vineyard, and then was part of the fledgling Southend Vineyard, I immersed myself in teaching tapes, went to everything I could, wherever it was and never felt more at home before or since. I noticed in around 2000, a shift. I had always seen Wimber’s vision as pretty simple. We love God, we love people, we create churches that we would want to go to and we pray for everything that moves, and most of what doesn’t. There was a lot of power around when I first joined. It was messy, naive (in a good way) and not very self conscious. Since 2000 I have felt that as a movement we have (and these are big strokes I’m using) sometimes almost been ashamed if who we are. I didn’t join the vineyard because it was well organized, seeker friendly great at everything, slickly produced etc. I joined a rag tag bunch of outsiders who didn’t really have a clue what they were doing but were doing it because God told ‘em and they were willing t give up their lives for it. That’s my family heritage. I don’t always relate to what’s going on now, maybe I’m too old school, and often I get frustrated, but as Jamie said, its family. And that’s the ethos that we need to protect. A naturally supernatural, worshiping tribe….
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Comment by Stuart
1.42 pm on 3 Feb 2010
Thank you Graeme,
I find your comment refreshing reading both in content and in spirit. It raises important questions for me:
Are we, in the pursuit of maturity, trying to avoid the mess that often accompanies dynamic power, ministry and growth? Have we forgotten that faith is spelled R.I.S.K. and that this applies to all levels of life? Have we focused more on stability rather than on sustainability?
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Comment by steven hamilton
4.21 pm on 9 Feb 2010
graeme and stuart –
i love these questions, the sustainability one is difficult and messy one to wrestle with…but as you all pointed out: we have to embrace the mess to move forward….great thoughts…
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Comment by rodney
2.42 pm on 4 Feb 2010
In Northern Ireland we have 2 thriving expanding Vineyard church plants which stand in sharp contrast to the decline in other church denominations due to the rapid secularisation which NI is undergoing…it is all a matter of local context.
Rodney
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Comment by Graeme Campbell
2.51 pm on 4 Feb 2010
I would agree with Rodney, the Scottish & Irish Vineyards are thriving and growing, they are outward focussed, not only in social action but also equally balanced with taking risks supernaturally. I think that is the key. There are historically many religious divisions in both nations, but the Vineyard seems to be breaking through.
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Pingback by Vineyard Churches: 4 factors that we need to face? at Deep Church
7.06 pm on 7 Feb 2010
[...] the last week, we have had a lively discussion here with the post ‘is there any move left in the movement’, prompted by my reflections on a talk by Caleb [...]
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Comment by Kevin Butterfield
11.37 pm on 9 Feb 2010
As someone who was a Pastor of the emerging church in America for the past 10 years in theologically conservative, east coast, evangelical contexts and now a Pastor of a growing Vineyard church in Australia (I know that sounds crazy, but God has us on a journey), I am eager to hear more on this conversation.
Seeing the Vineyard from two continent perspective (on the outside in the U.S. and from the inside here in Australia) I have my own theories of why the decline is happening in the Vineyard and why other movements are gaining momentum using the same values and practices that marked the Vineyard. That is to say, why are other movements that have the same DNA as the Vineyard flourishing and the Vineyard declining? And further more, why are some of those movements flourishing among young people who are supposed to be “emergent” types?
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Comment by steven hamilton
1.06 pm on 10 Feb 2010
love to hear more of your perspetive kevin! also, love to hear how you are ‘doing church’ in australia, given you emerging roots…are you doing an emerging vineyard church? there are several others that i know of…anyway, welcome to the conversation…
peace
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Comment by Ardell
12.37 am on 12 Feb 2010
Interesting conversion…. and one that impacts me quite a bit… =?
Before jumping into the fray, I think it would be good to give you all a quick bio. I am a 29 yr-old bio-vocational associate pastor who joined the Vineyard Movement in 2003. During those seven years, my wife and I have done a lot of stuff including leading an environmental stewardship ministry in a local Vineyard church and a mission partnership. We have also visited Vineyard churches in Chile, Paraguay, and the Philippines…
All in all, I think the Vineyard has a good future – with two caveats:
One, we must remember “why” we do what we do. In talking to other Vineyard leaders within my generation, I have noticed that most of them talking about doing things because it is the “Vineyard way.” It is almost as if the older generation leaders taught them “how” to do stuff (i.e. worship, prayer, ministry, etc) without teaching the “why”.
To paraphrase Derek Morphew, we need to guard against reducing the Kingdom of God to simply signs and wonders, church planting, social action, worship and/or personal salvation.
The second caveat is mentorship and pastoral care. Over the past year and a half of becoming a pastor, neither my senior pastor or I have received any non-solicited communications from our sending pastor, regional overseer, or church planting supervisor.
I started asking around to see if this was “normal” – to my dismay, I found that a lot of church planters inside and outside my region have had the same experience. Once they “sent out”, they where on their own, unless they initiated contact.
This, to me, is a very, very bad sign. The regional and national leaders should be the ones reaching out to those under their care and making sure they are alright. Granted, some of the responsibility rest on those “sent out” – but not ALL of it, as it is currently.
Conclusion – we have some work do to if we are going to make it another 25 years. =?
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Comment by Gwen
2.09 am on 12 Feb 2010
I’m finding this a very interesting discussion & am thankful that some have understood what I was trying to say in my earlier comments. I think this post by Joshua Hopping illustrates very well my concerns from my Vineyard days – what makes me sad is that this is still going on – which is why I am so delighted that a new generation is asking the hard questions of how the Vineyard can move forward into the future.
As I said before, I still love the Vineyard & have never ruled out being a part of it again in the future – circumstance has dictated otherwise for the time being. God has done amazing things round the world through this movement despite having to work through humans with blind spots & failings – this is how I learned to understand grace.
I’m not a theologian but respect those of you who are, who are looking for a new way forward.
Blessings to you!
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Comment by steven hamilton
12.13 pm on 12 Feb 2010
joshua –
quite amazing that you have been neglected, but i think you make a very great point that some of us have talked about: Vineyard’s structure was set up in the early days has there has been little change…time has gone by enough so that we can see where we need some change, thus i think it is time to re-visit the structure and put in place those things that can help, especially pastoral care…
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Comment by Joshua Hopping
6.41 pm on 12 Feb 2010
“Vineyard’s structure was set up in the early days has there has been little change”
Agreed.
From what I can tell, the original structure of the Vineyard was based upon relationships formed during its hay day in Southern California. As the movement spread out and way from California, it became more and more difficult to keep up with everyone – espically as new people joined in who did not have contact with the original group.
This unsustainable structure indirectly put a ton pressure on the regionally/national leaders as they where expected to a) know everyone under them and b) pastor and lead their on churches.
My prayer is that as we move through these growing pains, the Lord will help us create a leadership structure that is scalable – removing unnecessary pressure while taking care of leaders.
On the bright side, I am exited to see/hear honest discussions like one. For a while I thought I was the only one seeing these things…as it is, I see that God is working and that there are people who have been around the Vineyard longer then I have talking and trying to ‘fix’ the weak areas of the movement. That in itself if very hopefully. =)
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Comment by Joshua Hopping (Ardell)
12.57 am on 12 Feb 2010
Just realized that I used my screen name instead of my “real name” as the instructions state… =? A habit formed by years of online surfing. =D
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Comment by Kevin Butterfield
1.52 am on 13 Feb 2010
This may seem to be a tangent, but I think is central to the discussion. How many churches have been adopted into the movement lately? Why this is central is that in the early days of the Vineyard there were many churches that already existed and had some structure, trained, seasoned Pastors and core group of people that “became” Vineyard. Now we have people planting churches without any of those things. Add to the mix little training, mentoring and accountability (in the best sense) it’s no wonder churches are struggling. If you watch the early signs and wonders DVDs you will see several Pastors telling how Kingdom Theology and practices “transformed” their churches. What we have now is people that have never gone through even a personal transformation of theology and practices leading new churches into the same experience (or lack thereof). Just another thought for the mix.
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Comment by steven hamilton
1.29 pm on 14 Feb 2010
kevin, i think this is an important distinction that many have ‘forgotten’ over time…thanks for bringing it up!
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Pingback by Why bother with Theology? at Deep Church
12.12 pm on 15 Feb 2010
[...] off, so will return at the start of next week with a response to that, and the rest of my promised Vineyard Church series, on it’s distinctives and how they might be run against some of the theological issues the [...]
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Pingback by Vineyard Churches re-imagined? at Deep Church
9.38 am on 24 Feb 2010
[...] on the 31st january, in my post ‘Is there any move left in the movement‘, I suggested that I was going to take the presentation of 10 Vineyard Church [...]
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