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	<title>Comments for Deep Church</title>
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	<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk</link>
	<description>remembering our past to face our future</description>
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		<title>Comment on The Kingdom of God as a numbers&#160;game by steven hamilton</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/2010/03/15/the-kingdom-of-god-as-a-numbers-game/comment-page-1/#comment-10015</link>
		<dc:creator>steven hamilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:26:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=1991#comment-10015</guid>
		<description>a timely challenge!

i have been encoraged to see signs of this expanding understanding of the Kingdom and engaging transformative Kingdom activity, because i think the Kingdom is a dynamic...it&#039;s not static, but movement...and it runs up against all life and breaks through in all of life, which is social and economic and political and environmental and psychiatric and on and on.  and as we are the catalysts for this Kingdom reigning, the very creation/cosmos yearns for this redemption and God&#039;s people of the Kingdom to be revealed and to begin an eternal-kind-of-life now touching all ever-increasing spheres of life...

so i think your challenge is a good one: what does it look like for the Reign of God to break through in the environment?  what does it look like for God&#039;s will to be done in economics as it is in heaven?  

so, for myself i witness to the Reign of God breaking through upon a girl i have come to know.  but it hasn&#039;t happened all-at-once, it was a journey and the Kingdom broke through at times and hid itself at others yet supported the entire journey from a girl abused and trapped in human trafficking, to walk through what some would call a rough and ugly journey to more wholeness today...and while she has been healed (physically and emotionally) in so many ways and in specific ways, her friend who has been on the same sort of journey hasn&#039;t had some of the healing that she has...yet they both witness and struggle with the now-and-not-yet and yet both of their identities have been ransformed and touched by the Reign of God, and i stand amazed at the work of God in their lives...

so personal benefit?...yes.  still struggling with past addictions and continued temptations?...yes.  now-and-not-yet?...yes.  political?...yes.  one of them actually went with us a few years ago and we stood with her as she testified before the Maryland legislature to advocate for laws that empower and train law enforcement and legal authorities and social services to tackle traffickers and their victims/survivors.  and i am convinced that when she was testifying that i wasn&#039;t the only one who felt Jesus walk through the room...as love was asking power to implement justice...and future broke through with the hope of the Kingdom and it warmed my heart that day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>a timely challenge!</p>
<p>i have been encoraged to see signs of this expanding understanding of the Kingdom and engaging transformative Kingdom activity, because i think the Kingdom is a dynamic&#8230;it&#8217;s not static, but movement&#8230;and it runs up against all life and breaks through in all of life, which is social and economic and political and environmental and psychiatric and on and on.  and as we are the catalysts for this Kingdom reigning, the very creation/cosmos yearns for this redemption and God&#8217;s people of the Kingdom to be revealed and to begin an eternal-kind-of-life now touching all ever-increasing spheres of life&#8230;</p>
<p>so i think your challenge is a good one: what does it look like for the Reign of God to break through in the environment?  what does it look like for God&#8217;s will to be done in economics as it is in heaven?  </p>
<p>so, for myself i witness to the Reign of God breaking through upon a girl i have come to know.  but it hasn&#8217;t happened all-at-once, it was a journey and the Kingdom broke through at times and hid itself at others yet supported the entire journey from a girl abused and trapped in human trafficking, to walk through what some would call a rough and ugly journey to more wholeness today&#8230;and while she has been healed (physically and emotionally) in so many ways and in specific ways, her friend who has been on the same sort of journey hasn&#8217;t had some of the healing that she has&#8230;yet they both witness and struggle with the now-and-not-yet and yet both of their identities have been ransformed and touched by the Reign of God, and i stand amazed at the work of God in their lives&#8230;</p>
<p>so personal benefit?&#8230;yes.  still struggling with past addictions and continued temptations?&#8230;yes.  now-and-not-yet?&#8230;yes.  political?&#8230;yes.  one of them actually went with us a few years ago and we stood with her as she testified before the Maryland legislature to advocate for laws that empower and train law enforcement and legal authorities and social services to tackle traffickers and their victims/survivors.  and i am convinced that when she was testifying that i wasn&#8217;t the only one who felt Jesus walk through the room&#8230;as love was asking power to implement justice&#8230;and future broke through with the hope of the Kingdom and it warmed my heart that day.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Kingdom of God as a numbers&#160;game by Jason Coker</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/2010/03/15/the-kingdom-of-god-as-a-numbers-game/comment-page-1/#comment-10014</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Coker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=1991#comment-10014</guid>
		<description>Glad to see where you&#039;ve taken this particular point, and I think you&#039;re spot-on.  If I&#039;m reading you right, my post on Thursday will be moving in the same direction, that is, an encouragement to explore a more robust future vision of the eschaton that must, in turn, better inform our vision of the present sign and foretaste.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Glad to see where you&#8217;ve taken this particular point, and I think you&#8217;re spot-on.  If I&#8217;m reading you right, my post on Thursday will be moving in the same direction, that is, an encouragement to explore a more robust future vision of the eschaton that must, in turn, better inform our vision of the present sign and foretaste.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Vineyard values Re-imagined: #1. The Kingdom of&#160;God by Jason Coker</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/2010/03/14/vineyard-values-re-imagined-1-the-kingdom-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-10013</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Coker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:41:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=1985#comment-10013</guid>
		<description>Shouldn&#039;t this be #2, with &quot;Bible&quot; from last week being #1?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shouldn&#8217;t this be #2, with &#8220;Bible&#8221; from last week being #1?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Vineyard values Re-imagined: #1. The Kingdom of&#160;God by steven hamilton</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/2010/03/14/vineyard-values-re-imagined-1-the-kingdom-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-10011</link>
		<dc:creator>steven hamilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:29:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=1985#comment-10011</guid>
		<description>i agree...and really appreciate the mutuality of Trinity and God&#039;s community that you are bringing forth...may it be so</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i agree&#8230;and really appreciate the mutuality of Trinity and God&#8217;s community that you are bringing forth&#8230;may it be so</p>
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		<title>Comment on Vineyard values Re-imagined: #1. The Kingdom of&#160;God by Cathy Zellmer</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/2010/03/14/vineyard-values-re-imagined-1-the-kingdom-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-10003</link>
		<dc:creator>Cathy Zellmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 20:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=1985#comment-10003</guid>
		<description>Well said, Steve.  My particular take is that while the Kingdom of God certainly encompasses healing and spiritual warfare, it is far more than that.  The Kingdom of God is wherever the presence of God is.  I agree with Frost and Hirsch who say that the Trinity is actually embodied in the people of God.  Thus the Kingdom of God indwells the believer.  When we present our person, or face, to another we are presenting the Kingdom of God.  Speaking from personal practice, I’d suggest that our presentation can often be quite shallow, not a true representation of the Triune God. 
 
It seems that one emphasis of God currently is in the community life of the Trinity being expressed through the Church.  He is deepening our understanding of what it means to ‘make room’ for one another in community, as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit make room for one another in the Godhead.  Not only do we make room for one another as individuals, we make room for one another as groups in all of our diversity and differences.  In regard to these differences, I’d suggest that the ‘Tower of Christianity’ needs to be disassembled, and a common language found in the deep love of God.  There aren’t going to be multiple brides, there is one Bride of Christ.  I am convinced that God has saved the best wine for last and that we are beginning to taste the richness of it as we build deeper within ourselves and our churches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said, Steve.  My particular take is that while the Kingdom of God certainly encompasses healing and spiritual warfare, it is far more than that.  The Kingdom of God is wherever the presence of God is.  I agree with Frost and Hirsch who say that the Trinity is actually embodied in the people of God.  Thus the Kingdom of God indwells the believer.  When we present our person, or face, to another we are presenting the Kingdom of God.  Speaking from personal practice, I’d suggest that our presentation can often be quite shallow, not a true representation of the Triune God. </p>
<p>It seems that one emphasis of God currently is in the community life of the Trinity being expressed through the Church.  He is deepening our understanding of what it means to ‘make room’ for one another in community, as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit make room for one another in the Godhead.  Not only do we make room for one another as individuals, we make room for one another as groups in all of our diversity and differences.  In regard to these differences, I’d suggest that the ‘Tower of Christianity’ needs to be disassembled, and a common language found in the deep love of God.  There aren’t going to be multiple brides, there is one Bride of Christ.  I am convinced that God has saved the best wine for last and that we are beginning to taste the richness of it as we build deeper within ourselves and our churches.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Re-Imagining Vineyard Distinctives: Creating Theological Space for Biblical&#160;Engagement by steven hamilton</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/2010/03/11/re-imagining-vineyard-distinctives-creating-theological-space-for-biblical-engagement/comment-page-1/#comment-10002</link>
		<dc:creator>steven hamilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:34:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=1937#comment-10002</guid>
		<description>thnaks for sharing Daveen!  my friend bob ekblad has a similar story with people in central america, and even with Spanish-speaking immigrants in the NW U.S.A. nowadays.  he found much the same thing in that communal inclusion aspect...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thnaks for sharing Daveen!  my friend bob ekblad has a similar story with people in central america, and even with Spanish-speaking immigrants in the NW U.S.A. nowadays.  he found much the same thing in that communal inclusion aspect&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Vineyard values Re-imagined: #1. The Kingdom of&#160;God by Steven Schenk</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/2010/03/14/vineyard-values-re-imagined-1-the-kingdom-of-god/comment-page-1/#comment-10001</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Schenk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=1985#comment-10001</guid>
		<description>I suppose there are some additional voices in the &#039;Kingdom of God&#039; conversation that have really opened up the way we in the Vineyard think about it.

Personally, I was first introduced to Kingdom language through Willard.  Then more classic Vineyard stuff like Ladd and Wimber.  Then lastly Wright.  My personal understanding of the Kingdom owes much more to Willard and Wright, than to Ladd and WImber.

I think there is a fundamental insight that the Vineyard adds to the conversation on Kingdom (the &#039;conflict&#039; paradigm that explains so much, and the &#039;our place in the time-line&#039; perspective that is indispensable to understanding the Kingdom at all), but I see in these other two authors a needed course correction.

Not that the we have missed completely the need for spiritual transformation that flows from intimacy, or the description of future structures of justice that informs present action, but I see these as largely divorced from the Kingdom language, which has (in our Vineyard context) largely centered around charismatic experience and spiritual warfare.

So, I see &#039;Kingdom&#039; becoming a more holistic, and all-encompassing, paradigm for Christian living and mission.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose there are some additional voices in the &#8216;Kingdom of God&#8217; conversation that have really opened up the way we in the Vineyard think about it.</p>
<p>Personally, I was first introduced to Kingdom language through Willard.  Then more classic Vineyard stuff like Ladd and Wimber.  Then lastly Wright.  My personal understanding of the Kingdom owes much more to Willard and Wright, than to Ladd and WImber.</p>
<p>I think there is a fundamental insight that the Vineyard adds to the conversation on Kingdom (the &#8216;conflict&#8217; paradigm that explains so much, and the &#8216;our place in the time-line&#8217; perspective that is indispensable to understanding the Kingdom at all), but I see in these other two authors a needed course correction.</p>
<p>Not that the we have missed completely the need for spiritual transformation that flows from intimacy, or the description of future structures of justice that informs present action, but I see these as largely divorced from the Kingdom language, which has (in our Vineyard context) largely centered around charismatic experience and spiritual warfare.</p>
<p>So, I see &#8216;Kingdom&#8217; becoming a more holistic, and all-encompassing, paradigm for Christian living and mission.</p>
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		<title>Comment on 10 Vineyard Church distinctives to theologically&#160;re-imagine? by Vineyard values Re-imagined: #1. The Kingdom of God at Deep Church</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/2010/03/05/10-vineyard-church-distinctives-to-theologically-re-imagine/comment-page-1/#comment-10000</link>
		<dc:creator>Vineyard values Re-imagined: #1. The Kingdom of God at Deep Church</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 14:31:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=1929#comment-10000</guid>
		<description>[...] began our new series re-imaginging Vineyard Church distinctives/values  for our emerging contexts, with the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] began our new series re-imaginging Vineyard Church distinctives/values  for our emerging contexts, with the [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Re-Imagining Vineyard Distinctives: Creating Theological Space for Biblical&#160;Engagement by Daveen Wilson</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/2010/03/11/re-imagining-vineyard-distinctives-creating-theological-space-for-biblical-engagement/comment-page-1/#comment-9998</link>
		<dc:creator>Daveen Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 13:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=1937#comment-9998</guid>
		<description>Just to give a practical example to add to the others:

Lastnight, I was preaching on John 17. To help folk imagine it, we set up a table on the platform, with bread, wine, basin and towel, etc, and had Jesus with the eleven sat round. I said it was a Big Brother (unfortunately, this plague is popular here also) moment, and we were going to spy on Jesus&#039; prayer for his disciples. Then &quot;Jesus&quot; actually read the passage in sections, with all the lights off except the one on the table, and I preached on each section after he&#039;d read it. 

Wasn&#039;t perfect, but certainly moving for the &quot;disciples&quot; and brought home to everyone what the chapter actually was about. Even if they don&#039;t remember much about WHAT Jesus prayed, they won&#039;t forget the fact that on the evening of the day he died, he spent a long time praying for his disciples - which included them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to give a practical example to add to the others:</p>
<p>Lastnight, I was preaching on John 17. To help folk imagine it, we set up a table on the platform, with bread, wine, basin and towel, etc, and had Jesus with the eleven sat round. I said it was a Big Brother (unfortunately, this plague is popular here also) moment, and we were going to spy on Jesus&#8217; prayer for his disciples. Then &#8220;Jesus&#8221; actually read the passage in sections, with all the lights off except the one on the table, and I preached on each section after he&#8217;d read it. </p>
<p>Wasn&#8217;t perfect, but certainly moving for the &#8220;disciples&#8221; and brought home to everyone what the chapter actually was about. Even if they don&#8217;t remember much about WHAT Jesus prayed, they won&#8217;t forget the fact that on the evening of the day he died, he spent a long time praying for his disciples &#8211; which included them.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Re-Imagining Vineyard Distinctives: Creating Theological Space for Biblical&#160;Engagement by Daveen Wilson</title>
		<link>http://deepchurch.org.uk/2010/03/11/re-imagining-vineyard-distinctives-creating-theological-space-for-biblical-engagement/comment-page-1/#comment-9997</link>
		<dc:creator>Daveen Wilson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 13:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://deepchurch.org.uk/?p=1937#comment-9997</guid>
		<description>Just to say, as a missionary in a poor, fairly illiterate community in NE Brazil, we have always involved folk - because although we might know the Scriptures better than they do, we DON&#039;T know their culture, and so have always needed feedback - plus they had no culture of sitting still and listening to one person talk at the front. 

We have got so used to this approach that it seems weird now to go back to UK, with churches whose members might even include folk who know, for eg, the original languages better than the pastor or who have been reading their Bibles longer - and yet to have NO way for anyone in the congregation to comment/question/ on what is preached from the front.

Had to smile re the comments on handling the long-winded ones - yes, we also have those challenges - but all very healthy, and creates a church that is far more engaged with Scripture - every member needs to know how to handle their swords - not just the leaders.

Thanks for the encouragement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to say, as a missionary in a poor, fairly illiterate community in NE Brazil, we have always involved folk &#8211; because although we might know the Scriptures better than they do, we DON&#8217;T know their culture, and so have always needed feedback &#8211; plus they had no culture of sitting still and listening to one person talk at the front. </p>
<p>We have got so used to this approach that it seems weird now to go back to UK, with churches whose members might even include folk who know, for eg, the original languages better than the pastor or who have been reading their Bibles longer &#8211; and yet to have NO way for anyone in the congregation to comment/question/ on what is preached from the front.</p>
<p>Had to smile re the comments on handling the long-winded ones &#8211; yes, we also have those challenges &#8211; but all very healthy, and creates a church that is far more engaged with Scripture &#8211; every member needs to know how to handle their swords &#8211; not just the leaders.</p>
<p>Thanks for the encouragement.</p>
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